Biopic Series: The Imitation Game (2014) Movie Review w/ LeftistSquidward
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Episode Summary:
In this conversation, Destiny and Thomas discuss the movie 'The Imitation Game' and its portrayal of Alan Turing and Joan Clarke. They both express their disappointment with the film, highlighting its historical inaccuracies and problematic representation of neurodivergent and queer individuals. They criticize the movie for sensationalizing Turing's life and reducing the contributions of his colleagues. They also discuss the harmful tropes and stereotypes perpetuated by the film, such as the portrayal of autistic individuals as either socially clueless or hostile. Overall, they argue that the movie fails to do justice to the real stories of Turing and Clarke. The conversation discusses the disingenuous portrayal of queerness in the movie 'The Imitation Game' and the lack of accurate representation.
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📕 TABLE OF CONTENTS 📕
00:00 Introduction and Background
03:34 Critiquing the Movie
09:03 Rating and Justification
13:17 Reduction of Joan Clark's Character
16:17 Inaccurate Portrayal of Turing
26:58 Sherlock Comparison
28:50 Film Inaccuracies
29:31 Historical Inaccuracies and Frustration
37:31 The Inaccuracy of the Fake Cop
46:36 Sensationalizing Turing's Love Life
53:00 The Candid Shots of Turing Running
56:28 Misrepresentation of Turing's Relationship
57:55 The Importance of Accurate Representation and Addressing Systemic Issues
58:31 Problematic Portrayal of Queer Characters
59:55 Lack of Diversity and Whitewashing in Media
01:00:50 Disingenuous Representation of Queerness
01:03:14 The Need for Authentic and Intersectional Queer Representation
Thomas (pictured on the left) & Destiny (pictured on the right), recording remotely on Riverside for the podcast episode (April 7th, 2024)
Connect With Our Guest 🌈
Leftist Squidward is a queer, Jewish, Brazilian creator who makes TikToks, music, and writes short stories. Their interests lie in radical left and queer politics, as well as Latin American literature and music.
You can follow their work here: https://linktr.ee/thomsky
Full Transcript
Destiny (she/they): [00:00:00 - 00:00:25]
Welcome to Closeted History, the podcast where we out the queer and trans history that you never knew. My name is Destiny. I use she they pronouns. And today I am joined by my good friend Thomas, better known as the leftist Squidward. And we are going to be talking about 2014's the Imitation Game, the movie starring what's his name?
Thomas (they/he): [00:00:25 - 00:00:26]
Benedict Cumberbatch.
Destiny (she/they): [00:00:26 - 00:00:38]
(laughing) Starring Benedict Cumberbatch, Kiera Knightley, and Matthew. Goode. We definitely have some thoughts. So excited to talk about the movie with you. Do you want to introduce yourself?
Thomas (they/he): [00:00:39 - 00:01:05]
Yeah, absolutely. I love the fact that you used the leftist squidward. It feels like a title now, but yeah, my TikTok name is Leftistsquidward. I use they/he pronouns, and I primarily do content about latin american things and leftist things, but I also, on the side, make music, write short stories. It's sort of a whole mess of things.
Thomas (they/he): [00:01:05 - 00:01:22]
But primarily, I really love looking into Latin American cultures, whether it's politically or through their arts and understanding what happened there historically and also its significance politically and culturally.
Destiny (she/they): [00:01:23 - 00:01:55]
Perfect. All right, well, um, I am so excited to talk about it with you. Uh, as I mentioned, we are going to talk about the imitation game, which if you have never seen it, it's a biopic about Alan Turing during World War Two. Um, that he tries to crack the german enigma code with the help of a couple of mathematicians. Um, and he is later on persecuted due to some things in his personal life, quote unquote.
Destiny (she/they): [00:01:55 - 00:02:08]
And so I will just go ahead and put it out that from this point on, they're probably going to be spoilers. That's what the movie's about. So if you don't care moving forward, great. If you haven't seen it, it came out in 2014. Come on now.
Destiny (she/they): [00:02:09 - 00:02:40]
Just kidding. I literally just saw it for the first time, so no worries. Um, but, yeah, we are going to talk about it. I've got quite a few things that I would like to say, but just from, I guess, like the Hollywood perspective and how it did. It was an Academy Award winner, it won best adapted screenplay, and then Benedict Cumberbatch was nominated for best actor for the Academy Award and very troubling.
Destiny (she/they): [00:02:40 - 00:03:04]
But it was produced by the Weinstein Company. It did come out in 2014, so that kind of checks out, unfortunately. And maybe another reason why I don't really like it that much. But so let's just start like kind of from the top. Like what overall, in general, what are your thoughts about the movie?
Thomas (they/he): [00:03:04 - 00:03:13]
So what would you get out of a ten? God, like a three? Like a three or a four.
Destiny (she/they): [00:03:14 - 00:03:15]
That low?
Thomas (they/he): [00:03:15 - 00:03:21]
Yeah, it like, it really, it really bothers me in quite a lot of ways.
Destiny (she/they): [00:03:21 - 00:03:26]
Justify your, your rating. So three out of ten from the leftist squidward.
Thomas (they/he): [00:03:26 - 00:03:31]
Let's. Oh, God. I mean, I don't know. God. Should I be saying the three out of ten?
Thomas (they/he): [00:03:31 - 00:03:33]
Let's. Let's. Let's just say it's like a…
Destiny (she/they): [00:03:33 - 00:03:37]
Now you're, like, regretting it. Like, no, maybe it deserves more.
Thomas (they/he): [00:03:37 - 00:03:44]
Let's just say for not- Actually, no, let's. Let's stay with three. It'll be like a 3.5 out of ten, more likely.
Thomas (they/he): [00:03:46 - 00:04:16]
Okay, so I've seen the movie three times. The first time I saw it was when it came out. I was 19 years old and I had thought about politics here and there, but I wasn't fully radicalized and I hadn't properly explored my own queer identity. I think I saw it with the lens of. At the time, I wasn't seeing a lot of very mainstream films that were openly, let's say, like, sympathetic to queer people.
Thomas (they/he): [00:04:16 - 00:04:52]
I remember there's a lot of movies that have come out in the tens, from the early tens up to the late, where they might not have aged amazingly, but because they had positive sort of treatments of queer identities, they were beloved by everybody. Like, I think of the danish girl, for example, where, you know, Eddie Redmayne is like, should not have been playing a trans woman. And yet people loved it because it was like, you know, the first of its kind in terms of a big mainstream film. So I thought very little of it in terms of whether it bothered me or not. I just saw it and I was like, oh, fair enough, okay, cool.
Saw it again when I was about three years ago, and I had a very, like, visceral reaction where I was like, oh, there's a lot here that I just am not gelling with. Right. It's a very, I mean, it's a british film, but it does match that very serious Hollywood drama style of filmmaking. It, you know, chooses to completely butcher the, the accuracy of Turing's life for the sake of making the entire movie.
Basically, this one queer romance about a man and his, like, dead crush from, like, when he was a really young boy and along. And, you know, there's, I felt as if the overall message, despite the fact that it was relatively pro gay, did also feel a bit like, self congratulatory at times from the sort of british status quo perspective. And then finally, the two other things that I've had trouble gelling with were one I really think that the portrayal of Turing as a neurodivergent figure was very, very, very bad.
And also, generally, I don't care too much for these british blitz World War two films because I feel like they have been made over and over and over and over again. And it really feels like, despite the fact that, yes, the British fighting the Nazis was, like, objectively a good thing because the Nazis had to be stopped, it feels like there's this one kind of unquestionably good thing that the British had to do related to war and that he struggled through.
Thomas (they/he): [00:06:45 - 00:07:30]
And so that era gets propagandized and made and turned into movies more so. And any other era, because any other era would kind of show the British maybe doing unsavory things like imperialism or colonialism. And there's an element of that that I always feel uneasy about because it never wants to question anything bad that they might have done in World War two or any wrong decisions that might have led to innocent lives being lost. So there's. There's a lot of things kind of happening when I watch movies like this, uh, and bad neurodivergent representation and, uh, uh, queer representation that I don't think is 100% amazingly done, also, like, feels like the icing on the cake.
Thomas (they/he): [00:07:30 - 00:07:35]
So, yeah, uh, I think that's kind of my. My reasoning for the low score.
Destiny (she/they): [00:07:35 - 00:07:37]
3.5. That's that.
Thomas (they/he): [00:07:38 - 00:07:39]
Well, what did you give it?
Destiny (she/they): [00:07:39 - 00:07:45]
You didn't give it a zero, though. So where did it earn these three and a half points from?
Thomas (they/he): [00:07:46 - 00:07:58]
Okay. Okay. We'll do my whole, like, argumentation, because I want to know your score as well. But it's a professionally produced film, and you can. I'm trying to be, like as, like, sort of unbiased as possible when I rate these films, even though that's, like, impossible, obviously. Yeah, you know, it's produced obviously, very, very well. It has top line actors like Charles Dance and Benedict Cumberbatch and Kieran Knightley and whatever else. Uh, they all do their lines very, very well. Uh, you know, and despite my protests, there are a couple scenes here and there that are written well enough that you're not, you know, constantly thinking about switching the movie off.
Thomas (they/he): [00:08:27 - 00:08:44]
It's a very well made film, despite the fact that I don't really think the writing is amazing, and I. And the actual sort of portrayals of the characters aren't great, and it's hard to take away from that. It. I. A zero, to me, would be like a movie that's not even trying to be a movie, you know?
Thomas (they/he): [00:08:44 - 00:08:47]
So that's kind of where I stand with that.
Destiny (she/they): [00:08:47 - 00:09:06]
Okay. Yeah, I. There were some elements about the movie that I did like, but I guess they're just, like, movie elements, you know? Like, I really, really love the score. And that composer, actually, they've done several other scores that I also like, I'm kind of like a score nerd. When I watch a movie, the first thing that I'm gonna notice is probably the score. So I did like that. And then there were some cinematography things that I liked. I liked all the shots of, like, the, the machine, the way that it, like, you know, would cut to the machine. And then, like, I did appreciate some of the storytelling. It was kind of slow, though. Like, in the beginning. Like, I feel like it took a long time to progress to where it was gonna gate.
Destiny (she/they): [00:09:42 - 00:09:54]
And then it was like, oh, yep, he's gay and he's gonna be persecuted for it. Overall, I would. I don't know. It's not a great movie, to. To be completely honest, I feel like it is okay. But like you said, some of those things that are incredibly problematic. And I don't know that I would even call it queer representation because I think that that's, like, almost giving it a little bit too much, you know? Because where was the queerness, like, the number one move or the number one rule in films is to show, not tell.
Destiny (she/they): [00:10:23 - 00:10:53]
And this movie did the complete opposite. Like, it just told us about his relationships instead of showing us one. I think maybe I would give it, like, a five because I do really like the score and I do like some of the cinematography. Benedict Cumberbatch is a decent actor. I love Doctor Strange, and Keira Knightley did okay.
Destiny (she/they): [00:10:53 - 00:11:03]
You know, I feel like that was, like, one of those roles that, like, is very forgettable that she's been in. So, yeah, I would give it a five.
Thomas (they/he): [00:11:03 - 00:11:33]
Overall, that is fair. I definitely want to talk about Keira Knightley and Joan Clark's place in the movie because there's an interesting sort of faux feminism done there where they're doing ladies can do it, too. And then they never investigate that at all after they presented. So there's definitely lots to talk about, even in her place, where she doesn't even add that much to the film, but that kind of speaks to how little or how, like, dirty they do. Joan Clark as a historical figure.
Destiny (she/they): [00:11:33 - 00:12:43]
Yeah. And I think that, honestly, I feel like I kind of have, like, a hate love relationship with biopics in general because frequently you find that this kind of thing happens that like, you know, when you're watching a biopic for some people, you know, some people only get their history from Hollywood, so, like, that becomes their understanding of an event or a person or, you know, I think that we all understand that it's just a movie, but when you fabricate parts of a real human's life just for the movie, you know, to make it into its Hollywood bullshit, that that can be really dangerous, because, like, that is what people think of when they think of autistic people. Or, you know, like, I've posted about Alan Turing before on closeted histories like Instagram and over on TikTok, and people are like, what do you mean? Like, nobody talks about it. He got a movie, and it's like, yes, but, like, did you watch the movie?
Destiny (she/they): [00:12:44 - 00:13:00]
Because that's not really him or his life. And so I think that that becomes kind of, like, a point of frustration, especially when, you know, we're having conversations like this. When you're comparing. This is. Of course, it's just for fun and analysis.
Destiny (she/they): [00:13:00 - 00:13:33]
And, you know, we're both nerds, and whoever's listening to this is also a nerd because they like to listen to analysis. But, you know, that I do think that there is some truth to it being dangerous about, like, just kind of making these assumptions and changing the story to make it into a more palatable and digestible portrayal of someone's life, because, unfortunately, that's not what he was like, and that's not what Joan Clark was like. And so do you want to talk more about Joan?
Thomas (they/he): [00:13:33 - 00:13:59]
Yeah. I mean, mostly, I think there's a really interesting trope that they use with Joan where. Or at least there's a couple of interesting changes that they make to Joan's character specifically that have nothing to do with real life. One of those being that the crossword puzzle to show that Joan was a genius never really happens. The truth is much more mundane.
Thomas (they/he): [00:13:59 - 00:14:52]
She was already working at Bletchley park and actually had met Turing, apparently in Cambridge before Bletchley park even happened, and managed to just get promoted to hut eight, where a lot of the sexy cryptography stuff was actually happening. So there was that. And then the other element of it was, you know, in. In this really annoying attempt to make Turing seem a lot more valiant and heroic, Clark never really married or never agreed to marry Turing for the reasons that the movie shows, which is that Turing was trying to save Clark from being sent back to her strict parents that wanted her to marry off and become a housewife. The reason they got married was just that they got along, that they became incredibly close.
Thomas (they/he): [00:14:52 - 00:16:00]
And despite the fact that Turing didn't sort of disclose his queerness to Clark until after they got engaged, they were just an incredibly close couple that Turing made an effort to be close to. So there's elements of it where Clark's character is reduced to tropes that allow Turing's character to look much more valiant or heroic. But I also think that the movie was going for such a weird attempt at this base, like, autistic genius character for Turing, that, in turn, to depict something much messier, like the relationship that Turing had with Clark in real life, would have been much more complicated and would have needed them to explain that actually, he was very good at picking up certain cues and. And doing things that the movie is trying to actually diminish him as being capable of doing. So Clark is very much reduced to being very helpful plot movers for Turing's character, which was very unfair.
Thomas (they/he): [00:16:00 - 00:16:19]
And again, I said that. I said at the beginning of this podcast, but because we have this opening scene with the crossword puzzle where Clark is depicted as some kind of genius who's actually even better at crosswords than tearing. And then what does she actually do in the rest of the movie? Not much. They don't really show her achieving anything else.
Thomas (they/he): [00:16:19 - 00:16:40]
The only person that ever gets anything done in the fucking movie is Turing, which, again, downplays all of the efforts of his colleagues, who are also working hard. And Clark, because they have to keep having this divide between the neurodivergent genius and the neurotypical idiots that are, like, bringing him or slowing him down. What did you think?
Destiny (she/they): [00:16:40 - 00:17:19]
Like, savant-like, for sure, yeah. Going back to Joan, I think that it is incredibly disappointing that she is portrayed in a way where that she couldn't stand on her own value, that she had to be discovered by Turing and that, like, dude, that's not what happened. She already worked there. So, like, you know, trying to take this kind of, I guess, neoliberal feminist approach of, like, oh, girl, boss power, you know, whatever, that, like, you're not even really doing that either.
Destiny (she/they): [00:17:19 - 00:18:07]
So, you know, the overall messaging of the movie, I think, is really confusing because, like, they're reducing the characters to so little when they have so much to work off of in real life. Like, these were real people, you know, that they had real struggles and real relationships and, you know, Joan and Alan, I think based on, like, what I read, that they broke up after he disclosed to her, but that, like, you know, she didn't know it's not like it was in the movie of, like, oh, yeah, I knew that you were gay. Like, it's fine. Let's do this to kind of protect both of us, because that wasn't the reality. The reality was that Joan and Alan were very close.
Destiny (she/they): [00:18:07 - 00:18:55]
They worked together, and they had a friendship, and that turned into an engagement. And after he disclosed to her, she was upset, you know, because she didn't know. And I think that that would have been a much more powerful story to tell than this, like, fabricated bullshit of, like, you know, oh, I don't want to be a housewife. Like, that wasn't her path to begin with. And I think that it really, like, and maybe this is just me, like, kind of feeling too much of it, but that there are many times where queer people did have to get married, where they had to be married in a hetero normative appearing relationship.
Destiny (she/they): [00:18:55 - 00:19:13]
And that I think that that kind of just, like, also takes away from that because, like, people had to do that to survive. And that, like, you're doing this as, like, a plot device that didn't really happen. And so I just. It's disrespectful. You know, I just feel like.
Destiny (she/they): [00:19:14 - 00:20:14]
Like, the people that you're trying to pander to by telling this story, you're ultimately disrespecting because, like, you don't know the real history. That's one thing that has been really, really affirming in my journey of closeted history is that the more history I learned, the more affirmed that I feel in my identity that, like, there were people just like me who existed all throughout history, from ancient history up until modern times, that, like, the point is that there are people who have lived and loved just like me and that Hollywood isn't telling these stories. And so that has been the really great thing about being able to tell these stories on the podcast, because, you know, I just feel like Alan Turing and all of our other fellow gays just deserve so much better to have their real stories being told. And it's. It's really sad to see Hollywood kind of take it for their own agenda because this movie is obviously Oscar bait.
Destiny (she/they): [00:20:15 - 00:20:31]
It's very, very obviously Oscar bait. And I think that that kind of goes in with the neurodivergent portrayal, that that's part of kind of what they're doing there as well. What were your thoughts about that?
Thomas (they/he): [00:20:31 - 00:20:57]
God, the neurodivergent stuff, I think, is the. The most rage inducing stuff in the movie, for sure. There is. There's a split where the movie can't decide if they think being neurodivergent is always missing social cues or is being a dick to absolutely everybody. Like, there's moments where Alan is just outright being hostile to people, and they're like, that's what autistic people do.
Thomas (they/he): [00:20:57 - 00:21:30]
And it's so bizarre to watch and to think that people who are writing this movie were like, yes, this is absolutely great representation for Alan Turing and who he was. There's also, like, such condescending writing around the neurodivergent stuff. There's bits where Alan, you know, gets an idea from Matthew Good's character, whose name I forget, but he says, like, oh, this isn't an entirely terrible idea. And Keira Knightley's like, I think that's Alan for thank you. Or, like, you know, someone.
Thomas (they/he): [00:21:30 - 00:21:57]
Someone says something a lot more straightforward than what Alan says, and then they go, that's what a normal person would have said, by the way, Alan. And it's like, my God, like, do you understand what you're trying to represent in this movie? Or are you straight up, like, trying to caricaturize it? Because it doesn't feel like there's any kind of charitable interpretation here that Alan might have actually been neurodivergent. It just feels, like, done in such a dismissive way.
Destiny (she/they): [00:21:57 - 00:22:47]
Yeah, I did read, like, whether he was autistic or not, and, of course, at this point, because he's dead and we won't ever know that. Whatever we say can only be speculation, which is fine, but that people said that, like, you know, he got along perfectly well and didn't miss the social cues, like, how it was portrayed in the movie. I mean, and we said this before, but I feel like it was just like Sherlock, but Alan Turing. And I think that it just. It continues to solidify this really prevalent portrayal that we already see of just white autistic men in media.
Destiny (she/they): [00:22:49 - 00:23:29]
Take, like, the good Doctor Sherlock. Now, this movie, if you want to call this that kind of representation, which I would caution you not to, but, you know, I just think that media portrayals with autistic people just continue to, like, reinforce ideas that we already have about autistic people. And, you know, I'm a self determined autistic person. And when I watched the movie, like, the interview scene, it was funny, and I was like, okay, maybe he's neurodivergent. This is cool.
Destiny (she/they): [00:23:29 - 00:24:03]
And, like, I felt kind of excited to have that kind of representation, but then the rest of the film definitely isn't that. And that, like, you know, I don't think that autistic people are really missing social cues in that way. Like, we also mask, and that's important to talk about. But I don't know. I just feel like they were just kind of going for, like, the tortured genius kind of portrayal or trope for Alan.
Destiny (she/they): [00:24:03 - 00:24:08]
And it's unfortunate because that's not what he was really like.
Thomas (they/he): [00:24:08 - 00:24:28]
There's actually, like. So I. There's a couple of film inaccuracies that I want to talk about because they really. I don't. I don't mind too much that biopics, like, change certain things in films because they need to make movie magic work and they have a certain pacing to fit to.
Thomas (they/he): [00:24:28 - 00:24:31]
And obviously, executive producers and producers also mess with the movie, but.
Destiny (she/they): [00:24:31 - 00:24:32]
Right.
Thomas (they/he): [00:24:32 - 00:25:02]
There are very convenient film inaccuracies that add to the bad representation of Turing as a hypothetically neurodivergent person. Because, like you said, we'll never really know. Or Turing is a queer person. For example, one of the big ones is that Turing in the movie, no one's listening to him. Not the military officer that's in charge of the operation, not the Mi six officer that's in charge of the military officer.
Thomas (they/he): [00:25:02 - 00:25:26]
So he takes matters into his own hands and writes to Winston Churchill and says, no one's listening to me. This is what I need to win the war. And suddenly they're like, all right, Alan Turing is actually now in charge of the entire operation, and he can fire whoever he wants, whenever he wants. And the truth is that him and his colleagues were deeply frustrated because no one was listening to them. Like, as a collective.
Thomas (they/he): [00:25:26 - 00:25:54]
It wasn't him. It was him. And all his colleagues together were frustrated at the fact that they weren't getting enough staffing or resources for the machinery they needed to make to intercept nazi messages. So they essentially write to Churchill together, with Turing's name being at the top of the letter. And the cryptographers never heard back from the prime minister, but the prime minister did action, essentially, more resources coming to them.
Thomas (they/he): [00:25:54 - 00:26:13]
So they said they never heard back. But from that day, their lives were made, like, infinitely easier. And part of why that. That inaccuracy is so convenient for the movie to do is because it adds to this Persona of Turing being cold and callous and unfeeling as a neurodivergent person. As soon as he gets the.
Thomas (they/he): [00:26:13 - 00:27:08]
The fake response from Churchill that he's put. He's put in charge, he immediately fires two people right off the bat. And, like, it shows that he has, like, no emotion towards them and no feelings about the fact that he's just, like, ruin their careers or whatever, which, again, is, like, kind of what we're talking about, about this movie sensationalizing this autistic genius trope. And one other thing I wanted to say is that there's something so dangerous about the kind of neurodivergent genius that I feel Cumberbatch has played throughout his career, because to me, it reads as if neurotypical people are writing them, going, oh, yeah, we have to value and love autistic people because they're useful to society, and that's why they're good. Not because they're their own human beings who deserve respect and rights, but because their geniuses that one day might actually give us something useful or something productive.
Destiny (she/they): [00:27:09 - 00:27:19]
Right. Right. And I think that, yeah, that is part of why, like, this portrayal of an autistic person is just. It's terrible. Like, I.
Destiny (she/they): [00:27:19 - 00:28:28]
I wouldn't call it representation because, yeah, I mean, you know, it completely ignores the work of his colleagues. And while. Yes, okay, it's supposed to be about Turing, and, you know, this movie does have to be sensationalized for Hollywood, whatever, but that. I think that it does send a different message about neurodivergent people and their capacity for relationships, and that that's how we continue the stigma or, you know, we make assumptions or we are prejudiced towards people because of certain ideas that are prevalent in our society, and that's it right there. And not only, you know, is it dangerous because of the portrayal of the neurodivergent person, but, like, that, it ignores the interconnectedness of everyone has something different to do, has a different contribution that, like, you know, Alan wouldn't have been as successful without Joan, without Matthew Good's character, without, you know, every.
Destiny (she/they): [00:28:29 - 00:29:19]
I feel like everyone kind of plays a part in it, and that, like, yes, you know, I guess he's the tortured genius, but that, like, he wasn't the only one doing work. And it just seemed like that wasn't turing at all. Like, I did a very brief episode on him just talking about LGBTQ people in StEm, and so I mentioned him in the podcast, and that, like, he seemed like he was very friendly and, like, he had good relationships with his colleagues and that the work that he was doing with his team was very important. And so, like, not only does this destroy, like, any positive portrayal of an autistic person, but, like, it just. It doesn't portray him very well either.
Destiny (she/they): [00:29:19 - 00:30:04]
So that's one of several misrepresentations and historical inaccuracies that, like, we mentioned before, that Joan was not discovered by Turing. She worked there on her own. Imagine that she had her own accomplishments, and then he. So I guess, like, a really big historical inaccuracy was the whole, like, chemical castration thing. Like I mentioned before, it was really disappointing that, like, they took all of this time to kind of lead up to, okay, we gotta break the enigma, and we're building this machine.
Destiny (she/they): [00:30:04 - 00:30:27]
But then simultaneously, they have this, like, fake detective telling this, like, bullshit story when, like, they could have just actually told the story because there was a trial and everything. Like, you know, he. He was prosecuted through the full extent of the law. Like, you know, it wasn't just like, oh, yeah, they found out that I was gay. And so now I have to take this stuff.
Destiny (she/they): [00:30:28 - 00:31:17]
Like, you know, he was put on trial, and it was very public. And then ultimately, he did have the decision whether he could endure chemical castration or he could be sent to prison. And in the end, it kind of shows him tremoring a little bit and that it impacted his work. But I read that none of that was really true, that he just, like, he wasn't impacted physically in that way by the medication, that it didn't, like, cause any tremors or anything like that. And then it did mention at the end of the movie that he unalived himself.
Destiny (she/they): [00:31:17 - 00:32:06]
And that there have been some, I guess, speculations about whether that's really true or not. And I think I read one time that his mom looked into it because she thought that he was poisoned, because apparently there was, like, arsenic on the apple that he ate. And, like, whether he administered that or that was done by another person. I mean, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to speculate whether someone would want to harm him, given his government clearance, given the information that he knew, given his sexuality, especially at that time. But also, it would make sense why he would also be mentally struggling, given the circumstances as well.
Destiny (she/they): [00:32:06 - 00:32:18]
So, you know, it's interesting to look back now with the information that we have, but, you know, all that we can do is just kind of speculate. What are your thoughts?
Thomas (they/he): [00:32:18 - 00:33:08]
I think that. So the fake cop thing is one of two really big inaccuracies that I want to touch on, and I'm glad that you brought it up. Yeah, I definitely agree that they could have just told the story straight, and it would have been a much better way of actually showing how unbelievably unjust and unfair and cruel the system was to turing the intention from the director, from what I read was that they wanted the cops that found Turing to be gay to be, like, a good guy who actually just thought Turing might have been a spy. And there was this whole misunderstanding that Turing was actually just gay, and the cop didn't want him to be prosecuted for being gay. But ultimately, he didn't have a choice because his investigation led to that discovery or whatever.
Thomas (they/he): [00:33:09 - 00:33:40]
And first of all, Turing was never investigated for being a soviet spy. In fact, the thing with John Cairncross, which was in the movie, there's a soviet spy who has infiltrated the hut where the cryptographers are working. And there's this whole drama where Turing wants to oust him, but if he does, then the spy is going to oust Turing for being gay. And none of that ever happened, as far as I know. And from what I read, John Cairncross never actually met Turing.
Thomas (they/he): [00:33:41 - 00:33:51]
So one of those, like, Hollywood things where they just wanted to spice up the movie and add some drama. So that was one thing. And then the second thing is that to take away.
Destiny (she/they): [00:33:51 - 00:34:17]
Can we go back to what you mentioned? Because I just. You know, like, we mentioned earlier that this, like, audience that I guess you're supposed to be, like. I don't know any other word than pandering to. Because, like, you're not really telling it historically very well that, you know, supposedly he met this russian spy.
Destiny (she/they): [00:34:17 - 00:34:38]
Like, first of all, they accused him of being a spy, which, like, dude, he, like, saved us and helped in the war. Like, that is just defamation. You know, like, those. Those are very slanderous words. So I feel like even portraying that in the movie, like, you really want to go that direction.
Destiny (she/they): [00:34:38 - 00:35:37]
And then the whole blackmail thing, I think that, like, kind of going back to what I was saying about, like, queer marriages and how many people kind of set up arranged marriages for themselves to protect themselves, that, like, this was definitely a real thing that happened in the fifties, was that, I mean, people were blackmailed for their sexuality all the time. And I'm sure in places where it's not accepted that that's still happening, that, you know, unfortunately, people take that information and they use it against queer folks, and that, like, that's not something to sensationalize in a movie, that this is a real problem and a real thing that real human beings experience. And so I just. I feel like it just diminishes that a little bit as well. So I just wanted to add that.
Thomas (they/he): [00:35:37 - 00:36:24]
No, that's totally fair. And I agree with everything you said. What I would say, just in addition to my previous point is, the fake cop inaccuracy is kind of one of the main reasons why I feel like the film feels very self congratulatory about the way that it's depicting queer people, because what happens in the film is that a man who actually doesn't seem to be a homophobe but just wants to stamp out a soviet spy accidentally finds out Turing is gay. And then that leads to the trial. In the, you know, situation with Turing and his sentencing, what actually happens is that Turing reports that someone who was affiliated with a sexual partner of his had burgled his house.
Thomas (they/he): [00:36:25 - 00:37:06]
And during the police investigation, Turing has to disclose that he is having a sexual relationship with another man. And the police then just, you know, charge him, and that's where his sentencing begins. So if the actual story would have been told, you would have had a much more real account of how brutal and unfair the police system was. Whereas in this version of the story, it seems as if, like, you know, the law just happens against everybody's will. And actually, the police were, like, good guys that didn't want to, you know, didn't want to charge Turing.
Thomas (they/he): [00:37:06 - 00:37:40]
Like, the guy who catches him, who also played by Rory Kinnear, who is a great actor and kind of sucks that he had to play this one character, but he catches Turing, they find out that it's because he's gay, that that's why he's, like, kind of doing shifty things. And he goes, like, oh, I didn't want that to happen. I was just trying to stamp out a spy that sucks. Like, there. It's such a fake, fantastical idea that Britain was so much more progressive, and it's just its laws, unfortunately, that no one knows where they came from, but the people that lived under them were actually so peaceful and tolerant.
Thomas (they/he): [00:37:40 - 00:37:45]
Like, it makes no sense, you know? So that's definitely something that pissed me off.
Destiny (she/they): [00:37:45 - 00:38:18]
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, and because it very blatantly and purposefully ignores the. The continued state issued violence against queer folks by the carceral system and the justice system that, like, yeah, they are shitty laws, but because, like, y'all keep enforcing them. And, like, you know, I think sodomy laws were a thing in the UK.
Destiny (she/they): [00:38:18 - 00:39:15]
And you can correct me, I think, until, like, 1967 is when it was finally, like, some of the sodomy laws were finally overturned. And so it's like, yeah, these are your laws that you're responsible for. So. And I think that that happens a lot in movies that I guess, are very politically motivated or have some sort of, like, marginalized community being portrayed, that there is a tendency to typically ignore the systematic and systemic issues that exist for said marginalized community, and that it's always taken back to an individual level that, like, you know, oh, that cop wasn't homophobic. He didn't want this to happen.
Destiny (she/they): [00:39:15 - 00:40:00]
Like, first of all, the likelihood that that's true is pretty slim because, you know, he's a cop in 1950s, 1940s time era. So, you know, it feels very unlikely. And even if that particular person didn't feel that way, speaking out in a group would probably not be common. That, like, you know, the way that his, his mates were talking was probably how other queer people were being referred to. And we're seeing this clash with the police state and that, like, they're not going to let that be present in this movie.
Destiny (she/they): [00:40:01 - 00:40:36]
And I think that that happens in a lot of movies where there are marginalized communities being portrayed because it's, it's just ignoring things and putting it back onto an individual level so that you can say, oh, I'm a good person. I'm not going to do that. So this seems pretty unlikely. But the truth is that there are systems in place that allow for these things to happen every day. And it's so frustrating because, you know, like, people want to know the truth.
Destiny (she/they): [00:40:36 - 00:41:13]
They want to know what really happened. They want to know who these people really are. And that when we continue to sensationalize things through Hollywood, that it just kind of adds to that misinformation. And I think that because you and I were talking about class consciousness and that, like, it's very important to both of us, but I think that that is kind of like a way to keep us away from that consciousness because then it's just put back onto the individual rather than examining these systems that perpetuate oppression.
Thomas (they/he): [00:41:14 - 00:41:26]
Yeah, that's, that's such a good point. You were, you really, like, sort of hit the, what's it called? The bull on the head. I can't remember the exact term, but, like, the nail on the head. The nail on the head.
Thomas (they/he): [00:41:26 - 00:41:55]
Yeah. Sorry. You really, you really. That's such a good point. You really hit the nail on the head because, like, the, the story sort of absolves the cop or absolves the police as, like, an acting force that's doing something actually quite brutal to Alan and instead tries to sort of anonymize and point a finger at this, like, weird thing that no one knows where it came from, but it's actually just, again, the police enforcing said law.
Destiny (she/they): [00:41:55 - 00:42:01]
I feel like you mentioned that actor that he was also in Black Mirror. If you've ever seen Black Mirror…
Thomas (they/he): [00:42:01 - 00:42:01]
I have.
Destiny (she/they): [00:42:01 - 00:42:06]
you know not to watch the first episode. And he's in the first episode.
Thomas (they/he): [00:42:07 - 00:42:09]
That's not a bad first episode.
Destiny (she/they): [00:42:09 - 00:42:11]
He fucks a pig on public access or whatever.
Thomas (they/he): [00:42:12 - 00:42:13]
Spoilers.
Destiny (she/they): [00:42:14 - 00:42:23]
Yeah, exactly. Spoilers. But, like, I just feel like I can't. I just can't unsee him from that role, so. Yeah, I love black mirror.
Destiny (she/they): [00:42:23 - 00:42:29]
And the kid who plays little Alan Turing is also on that show in.
Thomas (they/he): [00:42:29 - 00:42:30]
Shut up and dance. Yeah, yeah.
Destiny (she/they): [00:42:30 - 00:42:35]
Yep, yep. Yeah. Season one of that show is intense.
Thomas (they/he): [00:42:36 - 00:42:47]
Yeah. The first few seasons before it becomes, like, more of a Netflix show. Feel, like, a lot darker and cynical and sad and pessimistic, for sure.
Destiny (she/they): [00:42:48 - 00:43:00]
Yeah. Yeah. I think the only. Like, I haven't watched the most recent season, but the. My favorite episode is the San Junipero one, because it has a cute episode ending.
Destiny (she/they): [00:43:01 - 00:43:08]
I love it. And, uh, I also like the. The episode where, like, the wife cheats on him and.
Thomas (they/he): [00:43:08 - 00:43:13]
Yes. Yeah. I think it's. Is that called the entire history of you?
Destiny (she/they): [00:43:13 - 00:43:14]
Yes.
Thomas (they/he): [00:43:14 - 00:43:15]
That's a great episode.
Destiny (she/they): [00:43:15 - 00:43:53]
Um, but so, yeah. Sorry, were there any other, like, historical inaccuracy? Oh, there was actually a historical accuracy that I wanted to note, like, a little honorable mention that several times in the film, he's shown running, and that the real Alan turing was actually a runner. He was a long distance runner and often would use that as, like, a way to kind of cope. And I thought that that was really cool that they included that, even though they didn't, like, you know, say anything.
Destiny (she/they): [00:43:53 - 00:43:56]
But for nerds like me and you who look it up after.
Thomas (they/he): [00:43:56 - 00:44:08]
Well, the shots of him running were actually candid shots of Benedict Cumberbatch trying to escape the film set, but they kept catching him and forcing him to make the film. They were like, nope, you're not getting away from this one.
Destiny (she/they): [00:44:09 - 00:44:15]
Yeah. Another movie that makes me look like a torture genius.
Thomas (they/he): [00:44:15 - 00:44:25]
Fine. Yeah, I did. I did appreciate that. And it was interesting to see them put that in and kind of use this. The.
Thomas (they/he): [00:44:25 - 00:44:50]
There was something kind of nice about them using that as, like, a psychological thing where it's like, that was him both kind of running from his problems, but also trying to exercise the demons of, like, the stresses he was having about the war and. And his identity and hiding it and all that stuff. That was really interesting. The main inaccuracy that I kind of have been itching to talk about, but I haven't found and, like, the right moment to talk about that. To me.
Thomas (they/he): [00:44:50 - 00:45:25]
Is it. If you once you start, like, digging into how inaccurate it is, you start to, like, understand and unravel the entire framing of the movie is Christopher Morcombe, the first ever love that Alan Turing had and all the sort of things that went wrong there. And it starts to tell you that the movie was trying to portray Alan's life in such a way, wildly different way from how Alan actually lived, that it informs, like, you know, his. His neurodivergence. It informs his.
Thomas (they/he): [00:45:25 - 00:45:49]
His queerness. Christopher was not as interested in Alan as the movie shows him to be in school, which is where they met, until Christopher, unfortunately, died of tuberculosis in school. What. What actually happened was that Christopher was quite passive towards Alan. And they didn't actually trade secrets about cryptography and codes to each other.
Thomas (they/he): [00:45:49 - 00:46:37]
They mostly just talked about maths and chemistry. The thing where Alan builds the first big nazi code cracking machine and calls it Christopher is a complete fabrication. And why that, to me, is maybe the most significant lie told in the film is that it completely warps the idea of why it is that we should be sentimentally sympathetic towards gay people at all. As per the film's messaging, Alan goes, like, Alan calls the machine Christopher, and then goes on to essentially, like, stick with Christopher. And even after the war, he's now transported Christopher back to his house.
Thomas (they/he): [00:46:37 - 00:47:07]
And the way he's depicted after the war is that he's not really doing anything other than just obsessing over Christopher. Right. Alan wasn't like that after the war. Not only was he still working as a consultant for different sort of government communications programs, but he also was doing work in mathematical biology and released. Actually, one of his most famous works was entirely based in mathematical biology and patterns.
Thomas (they/he): [00:47:07 - 00:48:07]
So there is this kind of lie told that the reason we should feel sad and sentimental towards Alan is that actually he wasn't so much just, like, queer, he was also queer and had always been, like, fatally in love with this one person his entire life, when the truth is that Alan Turing was not like that. Did not name the machine after Christopher. And upon the sentencing that Alan had to suffer from the government, he was barred from entering America, but was able to travel across Europe after being ousted as a gay man. And he met another man in Norway that he developed a bit of a relationship with. But they were never able to meet up again because the government intervened on their, like, letters and postcards to each other, to the point where they weren't able to see each other because they were able to intercept messages that were meant to go to each other about where they should be meeting up.
Thomas (they/he): [00:48:07 - 00:49:03]
So Alan's life continued after Christopher, but the movie instead shows us this gay man who actually only had his eyes for one person. And there's something really disingenuous about a movie that has no idea how queer people are or how they behave, showing us that actually queer people are serially monogamous and just love one person their entire life. And it's not like they can just, like, you know, have multiple relationships and be complex human beings. They have to be these, like, larger than life characters who actually are so romantic, we should feel sorry for them. And I feel like that there's this weird sensationalization of Turing's love life in that sense that really frames the movie as trying to make more of his queerness than was actually there with regards to Christopher, if that makes sense.
Destiny (she/they): [00:49:05 - 00:50:10]
Like, they didn't really show his queerness at all. Yeah, and it sounds like, from what you're saying, that, like, the government continued to harass him and persecute him, because if they're intercepting his letters with someone that he potentially has a relationship with, that, like, it sounds like they're not letting that go, even though you've already, like, you know, done your. You're sentencing because, like, he had already been on the medication. It's strange because I feel like the whole movie, we're, like, kind of cheering against him because he's, like, kind of an asshole. But then, like, the movie's also telling me that, like, I should feel bad for him, and that that's where his worth comes from, is me feeling bad for him because, oh, he's this great person in society, and look at the wonderful things that he accomplished, and, you know, he helped in the war, but that, like, that's where his value comes from.
Destiny (she/they): [00:50:10 - 00:50:30]
And not just, like, inherently being valuable because you're a human being, you know? So the. The messaging overall in the film, I think, is really strange, and it doesn't do anybody any justice. Uh, Allen, Joan, you know, any. Anything.
Destiny (she/they): [00:50:30 - 00:51:33]
And I think that you mentioned it at the beginning of the show, but, um, talking about how, like, there's just so much media that is really centered around World War Two that, like, I legitimately don't understand how we have so much media about World War Two, but, like, hardly any of it is very accurate. I just feel like Hollywood needs to do better. And, yeah, I would say overall, it's a disappointing movie.
I think that it could have been so much more than what it was and that they had so many opportunities to do something better, but they definitely made some choices, and they wanted to make it very digestible, very, like, you know, it kind of reminds me of, like, I don't know if you've ever seen that meme that's like, oh, can we have human rights Republicans. No. Democrats? No. Hashtag BLM and a pride flag. Like, that's very much the vibe of the movie. So, you know, I guess queer people are only worthy if they can produce things or continue the status quo.
Thomas (they/he): [00:51:55 - 00:52:30]
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a bit of a shift, at least, in how movies are portraying queer people now, where we are getting a slightly more truthful version of queer people getting to be humans and complex and, you know, we don't have to sit with these movies that are like. Like the imitation game where it's like, we should only value Alan because he was useful to us in the war. He was some kind of genius. And he was also deeply tied to this one person, clearly monogamous and also, like, deeply romantic. Like, none of these are, like, necessarily super true about Alan and the.
Destiny (she/they): [00:52:31 - 00:52:32]
Or about queer people in general or.
Thomas (they/he): [00:52:32 - 00:52:48]
About queer people as a whole. Yeah. And it really. And I think the thing that really pissed me off about the Christopher inaccuracies is that I feel like the serial monogamy thing is trying to almost, like, be, like, see, gay people can also be tied to one person their whole lives, just like us. You know?
Thomas (they/he): [00:52:48 - 00:53:23]
Like, it's trying to bring queer people closer to this idea of what is heteronormative and acceptable. But thankfully, you know, movies exist now. Like, I'm always going to quote Emma Seligman because she is, like, my hero, but Shiva, baby and bottoms, where it's, like, queer people can be dumb and messy and, like, problematic and, like, you know, and. And that can be, like, fun to watch and that can be entertaining as well. But I agree, this movie definitely sits in a really awkward and uncomfortable era where representation was done so badly.
Thomas (they/he): [00:53:23 - 00:53:50]
But at the time, people didn't know any better. Or at least the elites that gave out awards didn't know any better to the point where, you know, anytime anything was done in a very shoddy way like this or the danish girl or the green book, it would just make it in the oscars, you know? And it's a shame. I'm glad that we are slowly moving away from this era of filmmaking. But as you pointed out in, like, the good doctor, I think it's called the one with Freddie Highmore in it.
Thomas (they/he): [00:53:50 - 00:53:58]
Like, we're clearly not out of the woods yet with, like, really bad portrayals of people that are marginalized day in and day out.
Destiny (she/they): [00:53:59 - 00:54:08]
Well, and I think that, like, I'm really not recalling any actors of color from this movie.
Thomas (they/he): [00:54:09 - 00:54:27]
Um. God, that is a phenomenal point. I can't think of a single. Fuck it. Like, I mean, if there were, they weren't given in a significant enough part that, like, there's anything memorable about them, which fucking sucks, you know?
Destiny (she/they): [00:54:27 - 00:54:45]
Well, and that's kind of going back to my point that I was making earlier, that, like, how do we have so much World War Two propaganda and media, and none of it is accurate? Like, I don't know if. Have you ever seen a league of their own? The tv show?
Thomas (they/he): [00:54:46 - 00:54:49]
No, but I've heard many things.
Destiny (she/they): [00:54:49 - 00:55:20]
It's so good. It's so good. But, like, while I do agree with you that media is changing, I think that we're facing a new problem now that, like, while we do get some really great portrayals in media, unfortunately, they get canceled like a league of their own. The first season was phenomenal, and it was very intersectional. It touched on gender issues and not just, like, queer issues.
Destiny (she/they): [00:55:22 - 00:55:57]
And, yeah, season two got canceled, so it's frustrating. But I think that that kind of, like, that era of movies, like, the feel like movies just from that time, like, were either trying to be art, trying to win some kind of award, or, like, very much have, like, girl boss energy. Like, very neoliberal kind of messaging that, oh, don't worry about the system. The system is fine. See, there are still good people.
Destiny (she/they): [00:55:57 - 00:56:33]
And fortunately, ten years later, here we are. I think that a lot of people are moving past that, that we're ready for narratives that do show real, honest portrayals of people that are messy and just like life, you know? So, yeah, the imitation game, definitely not my favorite. Definitely not good representation. I asked some folks over on my instagram, in our little broadcast channel, to submit some of their thoughts.
Destiny (she/they): [00:56:33 - 00:56:59]
So I'm just going to use this time to share some of the community thoughts on the imitation game. A lot of people said that they were not impressed with the representation, that they would not have called it representation. People said that Alan Turing were, like, their favorite mathematician. One person said, it's not a movie about being queer. That's a whole other thing of him.
Destiny (she/they): [00:56:59 - 00:57:24]
And, like, yeah, I'm. I'm inclined to agree. And then another person said, turing's queerness was an afterthought when the movie was made. And I feel like that definitely rings true to a lot of the things that we were saying as well. That, like, I don't know if, like, they just didn't think about how they were going to portray that or, like, really why they went that direction.
Destiny (she/they): [00:57:24 - 00:57:48]
I think the whole, like, made up detective cop thing just ruins the story. And then someone else said, I feel like they tried to make Turing a Sherlock, like, genius character. And that's. Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. And another person said, yes, it's one of my comfort movies, for some reason, and also makes me sob.
Destiny (she/they): [00:57:48 - 00:58:18]
So I will say that I could see why it would be a comfort movie, definitely because I do like the cinematography. I like some of the, like, framing and just the way that they film it, but that and the score are about it as far as positive things that I have to say about it. So did you have any other, like, final notes that you wanted to say or anything that you feel like we kind of missed?
Thomas (they/he): [00:58:20 - 00:58:36]
In terms of closing thoughts? I agree with what was said. I stick to my 3.5 rating. I think that, you know, overall, we've talked so much about how the movie was. I will say this.
Thomas (they/he): [00:58:36 - 00:59:35]
I kind of disagree slightly with the comment about that someone made from the live feed about Turing Turing's queerness being a bit of an afterthought. I think that, if anything, it feels like they were carefully trying to figure out ways to, you know, kind of disingenuously warp his queerness away from what it actually was into being a neatly packaged, chewable queerness for straights to watch at home. So it's an afterthought with regards to, like, what his queerness was in the context of a brutally homophobic society and government. But within the production of the movie itself and the way they were constructing it, I really feel like they were like, okay, we want to win cheap points by making a movie about a queer person, but also, we don't want to. You know, we want to be careful about giving that queer person too much of the benefit of the doubt, actually.
Thomas (they/he): [00:59:35 - 00:59:58]
We want to try and make that queer person as close to a monogamous, loyal, straight person as humanly possible, to the point where, again, we don't hear about his other relationships. We don't. You know, we don't hear about him trying to explore other relationships following the sentencing. You know, we don't. We never actually see any sexual acts happen.
Thomas (they/he): [00:59:58 - 01:00:06]
It's. It's all way too convenient for a society that wants to feel like they're allies, but they're still very much not.
Destiny (she/they): [01:00:07 - 01:00:29]
Yeah. And I. I completely agree. I feel like. Yeah, they definitely try to make it more palatable and kind of to go back what I was saying about race, that, like, there are no people of color in the movie and that what is palatable in our society, and not that I'm saying that this is okay because obviously it's not.
Destiny (she/they): [01:00:30 - 01:01:09]
But what is palatable in our society is white gay men. And that, like, that is often what gets portrayed because it is very intentional to make it more palatable in that way. Which is unfortunate because, I mean, I'm sure that there were plenty of black, indigenous and people of color doing wonderful things during World War Two despite, you know, systemic barriers and a society that was not very accepting. You know, I want to hear more of those stories.
Thomas (they/he): [01:01:10 - 01:01:55]
No, I agree. And the point you made about how a lot of these stories or a lot of the earlier stories that still don't feel like they've aged well, really, their starting point is often, almost always cis white gay men is such a poignant and, like, true point to the fact that there was so little intersectionality for so long, even as early as, you know, the late tens, where you feel like they're trying to make a movie that might be good queer representation or whatever. And yet a lot of these movies are like, well, you know, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's just do, like, the most sort of popular or, like, you know, well known kind of queerness and then just kind of stop there. Let's not go any further.
Thomas (they/he): [01:01:55 - 01:02:19]
And you can feel that in a lot of movies for a very long time. Like, it took a while before. I still feel like, obviously, there's so much stuff that's, like, underrepresented, but that's where the self congratulatory thing comes for me. Because every time I watch these movies, they're doing the bare minimum. They do it in a disingenuous way and they win so many fucking awards for it.
Destiny (she/they): [01:02:19 - 01:02:47]
Right, right. And, like, you can take that award and shove it up your ass because this is not. I mean, it's just. It's. It's sad because I feel like, like queer people get so little representation in the media and then, like, the very little representation that we do get there is just so much whitewashing, de radicalizing that, you know, it's.
Destiny (she/they): [01:02:47 - 01:03:29]
It's not an accurate story either. And then, sadly, a lot of times, Hollywood would kind of employ some of these very stereotypical tropes and call that representation rather than telling the real story. So hopefully we'll see that improving. I think that definitely there have been some revolutionary moments that we're living through in our lifetime, which we're very privileged to see. And I think that there is definitely a social consciousness that is happening and that people are just not really accepting that anymore.
Destiny (she/they): [01:03:29 - 01:03:44]
And, like, definitely in the 2010s, that was kind of like. Like, okay, we'll take our little bit of representation and just be happy with it. But now that people are like, well, this is shit, so send it back.
Thomas (they/he): [01:03:44 - 01:03:53]
Can I add, there was actually one closing point that I wanted to make with regards to the. To the context of the movie happening in the UK, if that's all right.
Destiny (she/they): [01:03:53 - 01:03:55]
Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. I'd love to hear that.
Thomas (they/he): [01:03:55 - 01:04:52]
So, you know, we. First of all, when you pointed out that it was 1967, where it was finally decriminalized, the act of sodomy in private, you were bang on the money. Like, that's exactly what it happened. Weirdly, UK laws were so focused on the act of sodomy and acts of, like, what was called buggery at the time between men that women were completely overlooked almost to their advantage, because a lot of queer relationships with women were sort of allowed to happen in secret because they weren't as persecuted as men, where there were openly criminalized statements made against them in 1921, they were thinking of extending it to same sex relationships between women as well. The only reason they didn't pass it is because when they were looking into it, they've decided.
Thomas (they/he): [01:04:52 - 01:05:02]
They decided that the overwhelming majority of women had no idea what it even was, the act of same sex relationships. So the confusion there meant that they kind of just ignored it.
Destiny (she/they): [01:05:02 - 01:05:05]
Good play, ladies. Good play.
Thomas (they/he): [01:05:05 - 01:05:08]
Yes. Absolutely. A win for women everywhere.
Destiny (she/they): [01:05:08 - 01:05:09]
A win is a win.
Thomas (they/he): [01:05:09 - 01:05:42]
A win is a win. In 1988, there was section 28, obviously, which was this horrifying thing where nothing promoting sexuality could be put out into the public. And this was happening at a time where AIDS was roaring across the UK. So any kind of help in sexual health that could have been given to queer people was diminished and led to many more deaths that needed to happen. The petition to get Alan Turing pardoned started in 2009, and it only happened around 2013, 2014.
Thomas (they/he): [01:05:42 - 01:06:19]
So it took ages for them to actually get. It took years for them to actually get anything to happen because ministers and MP's kept slowing the process down, kept debating that it wasn't worth happening. And then when it was becoming a bill, they were trying to get in the way of it. When David Cameron makes gay marriage legal in 2013, this is kind of happening at a time where, you know, social understandings of gay people, particularly in the terms of cis gay people were starting to become a lot more relaxed. And I think.
Thomas (they/he): [01:06:19 - 01:06:46]
I can't remember if, like, that came before or after Obama, but I remember that, like, from the. From America's side, there was also, like, the legalization of stuff happening at the same time. And so once that happens, you then suddenly get an onslaught of, like, feel good liberal films about queerness now that it's actually sort of much more relaxed. So you have the danish girl, which happened at this time as well. You had this movie.
Thomas (they/he): [01:06:46 - 01:07:30]
You also had some, like, much better movies with good queer representation, particularly pride. Pride is one of the best british queer films ever made, but it feels like the imitation game very much was coming at a point where they were, like, well aware that there was something in the air about legalizing and normalizing tendencies towards accepting queer lifestyles. And they were like, this is a very easy win for us in terms of the awards season. You know, like, there was making the serious World War two film that is always gonna fucking score points because it's World War two, and british people love, you know, pretending that all of them were, you know, involved there and then. But, yeah, with.
Thomas (they/he): [01:07:30 - 01:07:53]
There was, like, World War two, and then they thought, well, if we compare that with what's currently happening with gay marriage being legalized and society looking more favorably upon queer people, then, like, it was just. It feels a lot more like an opportunistic movie when you. When you understand it in that context. Especially when you understand how disingenuous the movie actually is as well.
Destiny (she/they): [01:07:54 - 01:08:09]
Yeah, honestly, for me, that, like, that takes, like, a good point off for me, because you're joining team three. Well, hey, no, I'm. It. I'm at, like, a four. I do really like the score.
Destiny (she/they): [01:08:10 - 01:08:14]
And that composer is excellent, even though, for the score, their name.
Thomas (they/he): [01:08:14 - 01:08:15]
Four for the score. Okay.
Destiny (she/they): [01:08:15 - 01:08:59]
But, yeah, it's. It's funny because, like, I mean, this won an Academy Award, but in the same breath. Like, same sex marriage is illegal in the US until 2015. So while the UK took some steps a couple of years before, which does make it feel definitely more disingenuous that, like, how is this movie even coming out and winning an Academy Award when, like, people aren't even allowed to get married legally at this point in the US? And so it does very much have that, like, self congratulatory kind of attitude of, like, patting ourselves on the back, like, oh, we made this movie.
Destiny (she/they): [01:08:59 - 01:09:00]
Good job, us.
Thomas (they/he): [01:09:00 - 01:09:01]
Ridiculous.
Destiny (she/they): [01:09:02 - 01:09:07]
Yeah. So you've convinced me. I'm at a four out of ten for the movie.
Thomas (they/he): [01:09:08 - 01:09:10]
Nice. We did it. We did it, gang.
Destiny (she/they): [01:09:11 - 01:09:28]
You have successfully convinced me. So, yeah, four out of ten for me. I like the score, I like the cinematography, but that's pretty much it. Oh, we didn't even talk about Keira Knightley.
Thomas (they/he): [01:09:29 - 01:09:35]
We kind of touched on Keira Knightley very briefly, but, I mean, more than happy to hear if there's anything else you want to bring up.
Destiny (she/they): [01:09:35 - 01:09:48]
I mean, I guess my. Like, it just. It was a movie that she existed in, you know, it just kind of feels like that vibe. Like, there wasn't really anything noteworthy about her performance.
Thomas (they/he): [01:09:48 - 01:10:32]
There was a lot of, um. Keira Knightley's character is presented as this, like, kind, understanding person who is able to look past the fact that Alan is so neurodivergent. He scares everyone else. She's nice and she's sympathetic, and she is not going to be put off by the fact that his neurodivergent genius trait makes him really mean and horrible to other people. And then the movie does a 180 where whenever they need a conflict or tense dialogue between Keira Knightley and Benedict Cumberbatch, her character is super horrible about the fact that he's neurodivergent and, like, makes really awful comments that, like, in today's day and age would be.
Thomas (they/he): [01:10:32 - 01:10:37]
It would be, like, lying or disingenuous not to call it ableism, you know?
Destiny (she/they): [01:10:37 - 01:10:37]
Right.
Thomas (they/he): [01:10:38 - 01:10:53]
So it's. It's really wild because, again, it's like a. It's a female character that. And I don't know who wrote the movie, but it's a female character that feels like it was written by men, where it's like she's being used just because she has no character. She's there to service the.
Thomas (they/he): [01:10:53 - 01:10:59]
The development and the. The motivations of the male characters.
Destiny (she/they): [01:10:59 - 01:10:59]
Right.
Thomas (they/he): [01:10:59 - 01:11:13]
So, yeah, just. It sucks because Keira Knightley, I think, is a great actor. I like Keira Knightley a lot, but she. Joan Clark was done dirty in them in the movie, and Keira Knightley was done dirty by accepting the role, unfortunately.
Destiny (she/they): [01:11:14 - 01:11:20]
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, any other closing thoughts from you?
Thomas (they/he): [01:11:21 - 01:11:29]
Just for people to watch bottoms and pride and Watermelon Woman and, like, a million other films that are way better.
Destiny (she/they): [01:11:29 - 01:11:36]
Okay, well, so what you're really saying is that you'll be back on the podcast for us to analyze this together.
Thomas (they/he): [01:11:36 - 01:11:37]
Sounds good.
Destiny (she/they): [01:11:37 - 01:11:43]
All right. Excellent. Well, do you want to tell the good folks where they can find you if they're interested in finding some of your content?
Thomas (they/he): [01:11:43 - 01:12:07]
Yeah, if you're interested in leftist or latin american content, you can find me at leftist Squidward on TikTok. I am generally found there. My link tree is also available in my bio there, where you'll find my music or my writing or the Spotify playlist that I'm growing of loads of people's latin american music recommendations.
Destiny (she/they): [01:12:08 - 01:12:10]
It's really good. You should check that out.
Thomas (they/he): [01:12:10 - 01:12:50]
Thank you very much, destiny. And the other thing that I wanted to say is that I run, I do a lot of book talk stuff on TikTok and I am running a book club at the moment, which is going to culminate in a stream date to be announced. But the stream is going to be happening on TikTok and on Twitch. You can find me on Twitch at leftistsquidward and this will double up as a fundraiser for Palestine. So the book that we're reading, which will lead up to that stream where we'll have a book discussion about the book, is the hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi, which is a phenomenal book.
Thomas (they/he): [01:12:50 - 01:13:05]
And if you are interested at all, follow me on my socials so that you can keep up with when I come up with a date and donate as much as you can. It's for a good cause, obviously. Free palestine.
Destiny (she/they): [01:13:06 - 01:13:22]
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate your time and I appreciate everyone sticking around till the end of the episode. If you aren't already, be sure to follow us on Instagram so you can get all the best updates.
Destiny (she/they): [01:13:23 - 01:13:41]
That's where we're most active in terms of social media. If you are looking for transcripts or other episodes, you can check out our website at closetedhistory.com, thanks again to Thomas for joining me and I'll see you in the next one.
Thomas (they/he): [01:13:42 - 01:13:42]
Thanks so much.
