Biopic Series: Frida (2002) Movie Review w/ LeftistSquidward
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Episode Summary:
In this movie review episode, we explore Frida Kahlo's life and enduring legacy through the biopic Frida (2002). We discuss how this movie challenges stereotypes, highlighting Kahlo's artistic brilliance and complex identity as a queer Mexican woman. We examine how the film navigated controversies, including issues with Harvey Weinstein, to authentically portray Kahlo's life, artistry, politics, and personal journey.
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📕 TABLE OF CONTENTS 📕
00:00 Introduction and Background
07:53 The Challenges of the Frida Biopic
20:22 Appreciating the Film
26:38 Frida's Struggle to Separate Herself from Diego
28:25 The Portrayal of Frida's Political Beliefs
37:18 The Male Gaze and Nudity in the Film
41:39 The Influence of Harvey Weinstein on 'Frida'
45:28 The Importance of Nuance and Authenticity in Biopics
49:01 The Non-Monogamous Relationship of Frida and Diego
51:13 The Lack of Detail on Frida's Art in the Film
57:33 The Challenges of the Early 2000s for Queer People
58:55 Frida's Non-Monogamous Relationships
01:01:54 Critiques of Frida's Use of Indigenous Heritage
01:04:56 The Importance of Nuance in Historical Analysis
Links & Resources Mentioned ⬇️
Salma Hayek, Harvey Weinstein, and the Making of “Frida”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcZv3mLGw5A
Learn more about the real life Frida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jvWV3oPSsg&t=1685s
Biopic Series: The Imitation Game Movie Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABQg2ZjeB9U&t=103s
Connect With Our Guest 🌈
Leftist Squidward is a queer, Jewish, Brazilian creator who makes TikToks, music, and writes short stories. Their interests lie in radical left and queer politics, as well as Latin American literature and music.
You can follow their work here: https://linktr.ee/thomsky
Frida (2002): A Celebration of a Queer Icon Amidst Hollywood Controversy
Frida (2002), directed by Julie Taymor and released in 2002, stands out as a poignant representation of the life of iconic painter Frida Kahlo. Starring Salma Hayek in what many consider to be the role of a career, alongside Alfred Molina and Geoffrey Rush, the film meticulously delves into Kahlo's life, starting from her teenage years and exploring her journey through art, politics, and love. This biopic, based on Hayden Herrera's biography of Frida Kahlo, not only showcases her artistic genius but also illuminates her complex identity as a queer, Mexican woman navigating a tumultuous period in history.
The Legacy of Harvey Weinstein and His Stain on the Movie
This movie was produced by Miramax, Harvey Weinstein’s company, and unfortunately, his influence had a significant negative impact. Weinstein made some very inappropriate demands of Salma Hayek, like insisting on full frontal nudity scenes and setting nearly impossible standards prior to production. He treated her very poorly on set, asking her to do things that made her uncomfortable, including those nudity scenes and even personal sexual favors. His behavior created many challenges and issues during production, ultimately affecting the final outcome of the film.
Here are some specific ways Weinstein's influence was felt:
Male Gaze Elements: Weinstein pushed for a full frontal sex scene between Frida and another woman, highlighting a sexualized view of queer characters.
Exploitative Nude Scenes: The movie featured a lot of nudity, similar to the male gaze culture in shows like 'Game of Thrones,' reflecting Weinstein's preference for sexual content over genuine representation.
Focus on Bisexuality for Exploitation: Frida’s bisexuality in the movie appeared to cater more to the male gaze than to provide real representation.
Overall, Weinstein's impact on the movie was clear in the way he promoted exploitative and sexualized elements, which undermined the authentic portrayal of marginalized characters like Frida Kahlo.
What We Love About the Film
One of the standout elements of the movie is its innovative cinematography and editing, particularly in how it brings Frida Kahlo's art to life on screen. The film doesn't just display her paintings; it interacts with them, allowing the audience to step into Frida’s world and see through her eyes. The creative use of visual effects and transitions helps to weave her unique style seamlessly into the narrative.
In addition to its artistic achievements, the film is commendable for its accurate representation of historical events from Frida’s life. The film does a fantastic job of showcasing Mexican culture, highlighting iconic locations and traditions that go beyond the stereotypes. We are shown the Palacio de Bellas Artes, the bustling streets of downtown Mexico City, with their unique organs playing in the background, and even the pyramids of Teotihuacan. This film thoughtfully showcases some of Mexico’s most beautiful places and people.
Criticisms of the Film
While the film has its merits, it's crucial to address the criticisms and challenges it faces, largely due to Weinstein's influence.
Here are some of the criticisms we had of the movie:
The Male Gaze: The presence of the male gaze in the movie was evident through the emphasis on nudity and sexualization of Frida's character, which detracted from the more nuanced and authentic portrayal that could have been achieved.
Frida’s Lack of Political Agency: Frida, as a known communist, was not depicted as actively involved in political issues in the film. The political events were shown to be happening around her rather than her being fully engaged. The focus was more on her relationships and personal struggles rather than delving into her political beliefs
Final Thoughts
In the end, it seems that we had mostly positive feelings about the movie "Frida" from 2002. Thomas expressed that they initially rated the movie a five, but later bumped it up to a six or seven after considering the context and historical accuracies. Destiny mentioned enjoying the cinematography and creative depiction of Frida's art but was not impressed with the exploitation sexual content of the movie. Despite some shortcomings, the movie was deemed important for its timing in 2002 and its portrayal of Frida Kahlo.
Full Transcript
Destiny (she/they): [00:00:00 - 00:00:31]
Hello, and welcome to closeted history, the podcast where we out the queer in trans history. You never knew my name is Destiny. I use she they pronouns. And today's episode is all about the 2002 biopic Frida, directed by Julie Taymor. The writers were Hayden Herrera, which was actually the biographer for the actual real person, Frida Kahlo, starring Salma Hayek, Alfred Molino (Molina*), and Geoffrey Rush.
Destiny (she/they): [00:00:31 - 00:00:40]
I am joined again by my good friend Thomas, better known as The Leftist Squidward. Thanks so much for being here.
Thomas (they/he): [00:00:41 - 00:00:56]
Thank you for having me. Yeah, I appreciate the continuity of the bit with the leftist squidward. If anyone is like a faithful podcast binger of yours, they'll pick up on that. And, yeah, very excited to be here. I use they he pronouns, by the way.
Thomas (they/he): [00:00:56 - 00:01:04]
And yeah, super, super hyped to just jump in and surgically go through the movie bit by bit.
Destiny (she/they): [00:01:04 - 00:01:48]
Yes. So if you didn't catch the last episode that Thomas was on with me, we talked about the imitation game, which was not a very good biopic. So we definitely have a much better movie that we're looking at this time. So just to kind of look at how it did, like, from the Hollywood perspective, it won two oscars, 17 wins totals, like, from, like, film festivals, that kind of stuff. But 47 nominations total and at the box office had a $12 million budget, and it grossed 56 million worldwide.
Destiny (she/they): [00:01:48 - 00:02:09]
It didn't do so great the opening weekend. It only made like, 206,000. It came out October 27, 2002, and we'll talk more about its theatrical release. But there were some issues, so seeing that number kind of doesn't surprise me. But overall, it did really well, as mentioned, 56 million gross worldwide. And yeah, if you've never seen the film, it is exactly what it sounds like. It's a biopic about freedom. It kind of, like, goes through her life and starts when she's a teenager. She gets into the accident, so that's part of the movie.
Destiny (she/they): [00:02:30 - 00:02:44]
And then it just kind of, like, follows her life until her death. So we'll just kind of start, like, how we start our movie reviews. And what would you give it just overall out of ten?
Thomas (they/he): [00:02:44 - 00:03:12]
God, I think that when I finished this movie originally, it was like a five. I was not, like, super impressed by it, but having read the history of it and the constraints that the people that were actually passionate about making this movie had set against them, I would definitely kind of bump it up to a six or a seven. I feel a lot more sympathetic towards the movie now, knowing everything I know. What about you?
Destiny (she/they): [00:03:12 - 00:03:51]
Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I liked it more than you did, I guess, because the last film that we watched together was the imitation game. And that, I guess, just comparatively, just a very, very stark contrast. I mean, I've seen several biopics and I feel like they kind of do that Hollywood thing where, you know, they're just dramatizing a story. But I feel like that wasn't really as present in this one that, like, it took real moments from her life and just retold them instead of, like, dramatizing it.
Destiny (she/they): [00:03:51 - 00:04:17]
So without getting, like, too much into it, I guess I would say probably like a. A seven without looking at, like, the history in any of the behind the scenes stuff. And then with looking at it, I think more like an 8.5. Frida is also one of my heroes. So I did an episode on her very early in the podcast.
Destiny (she/they): [00:04:18 - 00:04:48]
And after doing that episode, she just became kind of like a special interest of mine. Had always really appreciated her work, like her art. And then I was researching her life and just, you know, fell in love with her even more and her politics and just so many things that, like, I aligned with her. So I don't know. Obviously, I'm very biased in my score, but so.
Destiny (she/they): [00:04:48 - 00:05:30]
And Thomas and I kind of keep, like, hinting at it, but I feel like we should probably just get it out of the way, rip off the Band aid, say the things that we didn't necessarily like about it because I feel like I have a lot of really good things to say. But they're always like. Like a double edged sword, you know, because of some of the things that went on behind the curtain. So this movie was produced by Miramax, which was Harvey Weinstein's production company. And this movie experienced a lot of trouble in the pre production that, like, it got kind of passed around like it was at HBO.
Destiny (she/they): [00:05:30 - 00:05:59]
And then it got picked up by Miramax. And initially, Harvey Weinstein gave Salma Hayek almost impossible standards to meet. Like, okay, if we're going to do this movie, then you have to have a well known director for well known stars. You know, several items I can't exactly remember from the video that I sent you. And I'll list the video that I'm talking about in the description as well.
Destiny (she/they): [00:05:59 - 00:06:24]
But he gave her, like, essentially impossible criteria to meet. But she did it anyway. She got what she needed to get done. And Harvey Weinstein wanted, after everything was said and done, he wanted it to just go straight to DVD. And, you know, I mean, the movie is not the greatest movie of all time.
Destiny (she/they): [00:06:24 - 00:06:49]
But, like, it feels a little bit disrespectful to go straight to DVD. And Harvey Weinstein, during the production. So pre production, he's, like, making everything really, really difficult to happen. And then during the production, he would ask for very inappropriate things from Selma. Like, he asked Selma to, like, take a show with her or with him to.
Destiny (she/they): [00:06:49 - 00:07:16]
He required the full frontal nudity scene that's present in the movie. All kinds of just, like, really inappropriate things that he was asking Selma to do and the way that he treated her while she was on set. And she's talked about it in interviews. And I'll link some down below. But, you know, it's just really sad because, like, what could have been.
Destiny (she/they): [00:07:17 - 00:07:47]
Well, what ultimately was a really great project could have been even better if it didn't have kind of that smear of Harvey Weinstein, his legacy, everything that people experienced under his leadership. And not. And also not to mention that she's a woman of color. And really how much this impacted her career because, I mean, this is like, one of the biggest roles that she takes on. And, you know, we-
Destiny (she/they): [00:07:47 - 00:07:53]
We don't know exactly what the impact of that was on her career ultimately.
Thomas (they/he): [00:07:53 - 00:08:35]
Yeah, a couple of things. If I had to sum it up, the shittiest part of this movie is Harvey Weinstein. That's like the biggest flaw of the movie. Yeah, I remember from the video you sent, he asks her to raise $10 million to get four stars, to get some a list director and also to have several rewrites of the script, which Edward Norton ended up doing, totally uncredited. And, yeah, it's just wild how much essentially the impossible demands were this kind of punishment against Salma Hayek because he couldn't get sexual favors out of her.
Thomas (they/he): [00:08:35 - 00:09:02]
And then, you know, once those were met, he was like, well, fuck, now I need to find a different way to torture her. And started putting in the full frontal nudity stuff in the contract. So he just. I feel like when I first watched this movie, I had this preconceived idea of like, ah, well, of course, like, you know, fuck the people behind this movie for doing stereotypical stuff and doing male gazey stuff and whatever, whatever. And then the more I read about it, the more it's like there were clearly two camps of people making this movie.
Thomas (they/he): [00:09:02 - 00:09:57]
The ones that were really passionate about telling the story of a queer mexican woman who is, like, half european, half indigenous, and who, you know, did a lot of things with regards to, like, her indigenous identity, her sort of leanings as a socialist, her sort of identity as a queer person. And then there's the other camp of people that were like, oh, you know, hot Tamale mexican woman. And also, like, let's exploit that for as much as possible, and let's get as many shots of boobs and as many lines about tortilla raps as we can. And, like, reading about that sort of tug of war, I think definitely makes me a lot more sympathetic towards the camp that really was passionate about producing a good film and reaching out to people. I think also from the video you sent, this one thing just got etched into my brain, and it's like an interview that Salma Hayek was doing in 20 in 2003.
Thomas (they/he): [00:09:57 - 00:10:44]
And she says, uh, when she was first starting off, uh, every agent or producer was just basically saying to her, like, you either need to just accept that you're going to be playing maids and, like, you know, sexual stereotypes, or you need to just go back to Mexico because, like, that's kind of all we have going on in the United States. And she was saying in the inter. In the interview, like, and I didn't take those as insults. They were being, you know, they were legitimate advice that were being leveled at me because of the toxic sort of environment of, like, Hollywood. So she, she took that not only as, like, genuine advice, but then she took that as, like, a challenge and as inspiration for her to break through all those expectations.
Thomas (they/he): [00:10:44 - 00:11:16]
And I feel like Frida was very much a movie for her to know, to finally be like, no, you know, mexican women and people of color and also, like, just latino people in general can have a place in Hollywood that doesn't include them. Just, you know, being the stereotype, being like, you know, fat and lazy or being addicted to drugs. Like, there's. There's more to us and there's more to us in Hollywood. And I think it's really unfortunate because she was.
Thomas (they/he): [00:11:16 - 00:11:23]
She was battling that battle with, like, one of the worst people in the fucking industry at the same time. But Salma Hayek?
Destiny (she/they): [00:11:23 - 00:11:54]
Yeah. Yeah, for real. Well, and, you know, now that, like, we're talking about it, I feel like, like Selma's exploitation kind of, like, speaks to Frida's exploitation also. That, like, now Frida's image is everywhere. You know, like, I feel like she really would be just so disappointed in how capitalistic her image has become because that is completely, you know, the opposite of how she stood and believed as a person.
Destiny (she/they): [00:11:54 - 00:12:52]
And, you know, in that same regard, Selma also, her body is being exploited in her image. And, you know, in order to get this movie that she had to do a full frontal nude scene and with a girl like that was in the caveat, like, in these list of stipulations. And, you know, I don't want to harp on it too much because I do think that it kind of takes away from the story. And, like, I don't want anyone to think that, like, this is a movie that has been stained by Harvey Weinstein and that you can't watch it because that's not true. I think it is a beautiful story, but it's important to acknowledge that that's kind of where this, like, male gazey, very, like, it's cool if you're bisexual, because we can exploit that kind of vibe that this movie has.
Destiny (she/they): [00:12:52 - 00:13:22]
And, you know, it's not intentional on Selma's part because I don't think that that's necessarily how she would depict Frida. Obviously, Frida is a bisexual, and she was very open about that. But, you know, I think it's important to acknowledge some of the things that that man, he just, I hate him. And I honestly, all the things I hate about the movie are because of Harvey. So it's kind of like, well, yeah.
Destiny (she/they): [00:13:22 - 00:13:27]
Any, any other final thoughts about Harvey before we leave him in the trash where he belongs?
Thomas (they/he): [00:13:27 - 00:13:54]
Yeah, I think that ultimately, Harvey Weinstein movies in general, this is something that I talk about with, uh, my partner quite a lot. You know, I. I used to be very, very unsympathetic to Marvel movies. And, uh, I promise this is going somewhere that's relevant. Uh, there's, there was this, like, sort of, uh, indifference that I had because of just the fact that Marvel movies often follow, like, a formula that I'm not quite a big fan of.
Thomas (they/he): [00:13:54 - 00:14:42]
And, uh, they cost so much more than most movies, and yet they end up looking, like, a little bit uglier than most movies. There's just a lot of issues with them and also, like, what they represent in terms of Disney and the monopoly that it holds over, like, the entire film industry and how many opportunities that's, like, taken away from, you know, independent filmmakers that want to be doing their own thing. But my partner's whole thing was always that regardless of the people we might not like in a movie that's being made, it's still giving so many opportunities to people that otherwise would not get to be in a movie or people that otherwise would not get to work in a movie. And those people, you know, are passionate about that movie and working really hard to make something beautiful. And Harvey Weinstein, despite the fact that he has stained so many amazing films throughout history.
Thomas (they/he): [00:14:43 - 00:15:04]
The films are still amazing and had genuinely lovely people that were passionate about making something in the background. It's just that unfortunately, he was the guy with the big bucks. My name on Letterbox is number one spy kids fan. And truly, the worst part about spy kids is every time it ends and the first thing in the credits is, you know, Harvey Weinstein. So it's-
Thomas (they/he): [00:15:04 - 00:15:18]
It's a tough one, and it's something that you kind of have to learn to accept that almost every industry has its fucking villains that, you know, have a hand in almost everything. And that's. That is. That is the nature of capitalism. Right?
Thomas (they/he): [00:15:18 - 00:15:46]
It's. It's an inescapable thing where profit is prioritized over any kind of ethics and any kind of standards for people's safety and livelihood. So, yeah, overall, I definitely think that Frida is a good movie. I would put it in the good camp as opposed to when I was, like, first watching it. And I am a lot more sympathetic to all the good bits of it because I feel like those bits probably came from a place that had a lot of love and a lot of respect in it.
Destiny (she/they): [00:15:47 - 00:16:10]
Yeah. And Salma even said in interviews that Frida was her hero too. And so she wanted to make this movie, and I think it came from a place of love and that her intent, at least for me, in these circumstances, definitely supersede his. But, okay, so we. He's in the trash where he belongs, so let's.
Destiny (she/they): [00:16:10 - 00:16:12]
Let's get to the good stuff.
Thomas (they/he): [00:16:12 - 00:16:13]
Fuck that dude.
Destiny (she/they): [00:16:13 - 00:16:35]
So let's just start, like, kind of from the top a little bit. It was, you know, I was interested that she started Frida's life, like, when she was a teenager. I mean, I know that, like, obviously, of course, it's a biopic. You can't fit everything. But Frida got polio whenever she was, like, eight or nine, and that wasn't included.
Destiny (she/they): [00:16:35 - 00:16:58]
Obviously, the accident was a huge, like, debilitating part of her life, but she was disabled before that happened, so I wasn't too happy that that wasn't included. But I'm glad that she did at least include the accident and not just like, oh, yeah, that happened.
Thomas (they/he): [00:16:58 - 00:17:17]
No, for sure. I, um. I found it really strange that they didn't include the polio because they then kind of included it, but they didn't give context to it. And it was a really confusing bit in the movie for me. So, first of all, when I found out that she got polio and it created it left her with a permanent limp that she was gonna have for the rest of her life.
Thomas (they/he): [00:17:17 - 00:17:50]
I found that so weird to read because the movie starts off with her as this excited teenager that is literally running back and forth all over, like, Mexico City. And I'm like, what the hell's going on? Who decided to okay this? But the other thing is that there's a bit in the movie where she's talking to Trotsky, and he asks about her disabilities, and she says, the worst part of it all is my leg. And, like, I don't remember exactly what she says in that scene, but I just remember thinking, like, that's really weird.
Thomas (they/he): [00:17:50 - 00:18:03]
I thought that it was just her back. Like, I don't remember there being anything to do with her leg. What's all this? And it all comes from a huge bit of context that the movie just went. Like, this isn't important enough to address.
Thomas (they/he): [00:18:03 - 00:18:30]
I think we need to just skip forward to the teenage years. And I think that this comes to one of the biggest issues I have with the movie. The fact that, like, so much of the movie is about Diego Rivera instead of Frida Kahlo. The starting point of the movie proper. Once we're done with the whole weird bit of starting at the end, the very, like, the earliest bit of her life that we get is her, like, sort of stalking Diego Rivera at her school when she's 15.
Thomas (they/he): [00:18:30 - 00:19:01]
So it's, like, from the very beginning. Frida's story, according to the filmmakers, is, like, only relevant once she finally meets Diego Rivera, because that is the first thing we really get of her life at her earliest point of her life. And it's frustrating, you know, because that's, like you said, it doesn't talk about her disability, which becomes a huge part of her art in terms of, like, the limp that she gets from her polio. It doesn't talk about the art that she was doing before meeting Rivera. It kind of just.
Thomas (they/he): [00:19:01 - 00:19:16]
It kind of just goes straight into, like, yes, she was an artist because she was also truly inspired by a man, and it's the man that was able to guide her art, as you know, in terms of the film language and what the film is saying to us. Found that all really weird. And also.
Destiny (she/they): [00:19:16 - 00:19:46]
Yeah, I don't know. Well, I think, unfortunately, that is kind of like, the trajectory of her life is that, like, she wasn't really seen as a relevant artist until she was with Diego. And, I mean, of course, that's not fair and it's not true because she's her own person. But that is kind of like the path that her life followed. Because she became well known through Diego.
Destiny (she/they): [00:19:47 - 00:20:37]
Many of her works of art didn't really become famous until second wave feminism through the late seventies and early eighties. So, unfortunately, in her lifetime, she didn't get to see the kind of fruits of her labor, so to speak, because she was mostly seen as Diego Rivera's wife. So, I mean, it is unfortunate that that's kind of how that went, but I do feel like, you know, in that regard, it was kind of accurate, at least on that bit. Yeah, but so Frida, like, when she does meet Diego, initially at school at unambiguous, you put in your notes that, like, it sounds like she's interested in the art, but when she's actually in the auditorium, you're not so sure. What do you mean?
Thomas (they/he): [00:20:37 - 00:20:52]
So the movie has this, like, initial joke at the beginning of itself where it's like saying she's like, oh, Diego Rivera's painting. Like, to her friends, very excitedly, and none of them care. And then she goes, he's painting a naked woman. And suddenly all of them go like, oh, hubba hubba. And they all start running to the auditorium.
Thomas (they/he): [00:20:52 - 00:21:27]
And, like, that is cool, because obviously, the movie is showing that Frida cares about the art. Her friends care about the nudity. But then in the auditorium itself, it's like a bit of a mixed bag where it's like she is kind of kissing Diego Luna here and there, and then she also yells out to cause some kind of scandal with the wife. It's a bit of a weird scene where during the auditorium scene, she's so excited and giddy that I don't know that I'm getting that she actually cares that much about the. The art itself.
Thomas (they/he): [00:21:27 - 00:21:43]
But I wonder how much the movie is just trying to tell us, like, well, she was 15. Like, of course she's gonna be immature or whatever, so I'm of two minds about that critique. But I think it's definitely interesting. It's. The movie really likes to track a lot of Diego's works.
Thomas (they/he): [00:21:43 - 00:22:32]
And I fully sympathize with the fact that the movie is kind of this struggle for Frida to try and distance herself from her husband's works and also have her own voice. And I know that Salma Hayek has talked about that and what that means for her, but I kind of wish that if the movie had truly been faithful to that idea of Frida's struggle of separating herself from her husband, that we would have gotten more about what her art meant or what her art symbolized or the impact of her art. And I think, unfortunately, so much of this movie, when it finally does touch on her art, it only really goes back to pain and not a whole lot else. Like, pain seems to be the main thing the movie is trying to convey Frida ever cared about. And, like, I think there's a lot more to Frida that we could have gotten artistically from the movie.
Destiny (she/they): [00:22:32 - 00:22:46]
Yeah, that's true. I do feel like. Like, the. The paintings that they selected definitely highlighted that emotion, you know, the pain and suffering that she experienced during her lifetime. I did.
Destiny (she/they): [00:22:46 - 00:23:16]
I like the way that they incorporated the art into the film, though. It almost felt kind of like. Like a musical, the way that they did the real life art. Like, I'm just thinking of the one where she cuts her hair and then Salma Hayek is, like, sitting there in the chair, and it kind of, like, you know, or the one of Frida and Diego, like, when they're, like, dancing and they're just standing there. She's got, like, a red shawl on.
Destiny (she/they): [00:23:16 - 00:23:26]
I just really loved, like, the cinematography and kind of the editing that they used in order to incorporate her art. I thought the way that they did it was really cool.
Thomas (they/he): [00:23:26 - 00:23:53]
I agree. I definitely think those were the highlights of the movie for me, the way that they were trying to find really creative and wild ways of showing her surrealist art in an almost, like, interactive way where they were bringing life to it. I like her. Her deathbed in that portrait lighting itself on fire and all the other little bits I remember writing down, like, yes, that's awesome. Also, there's a bit in the movie where she goes to Paris.
Thomas (they/he): [00:23:53 - 00:24:24]
And I think it's so awesome that after decades and decades of the fucking us film industry showing Mexico in sepia tones, Paris gets that treatment in this film. Like, Mexico gets normal color grading, and then when they go to Paris, for some reason, everything's sepia tone. And I'm like, awesome. I love that they've, like, you know, reverse, like, victimized Paris and turned it into, like, whatever Mexico was getting as a treatment. But, no, I do like the interactive bits.
Thomas (they/he): [00:24:24 - 00:24:49]
I thought it was really cool when Frida falls into a bit of a coma after the accident and they decide to do that claymation bit with all her art, and she's having this, like, fever dream about it. And all these themes of, like, death and regrets, I thought was quite cool. And also, like. I mean, I know that they were pressured into doing this, but I was blown away by the cameos in this movie.
Destiny (she/they): [00:24:49 - 00:24:50]
Oh, yeah.
Thomas (they/he): [00:24:50 - 00:25:05]
I did not realize Diego Luna was going to be in there. I did not realize, like, Edward Norton was going to be in there. I don't know if I agree with Geoffrey Rush as the choice for Trotsky, to be completely honest, but that's just me.
Destiny (she/they): [00:25:05 - 00:25:20]
Yeah, I feel like they did really good with her dad. Like, that actor looks spot on. Like, just like Guillermo. It was weird. And Alfred Molina, he's almost, like, too attractive to be Diego.
Destiny (she/they): [00:25:20 - 00:26:00]
Yeah, like, cuz Diego Rivera, I mean, you know, you like what you like, but he was not a very good looking guy. Uh, so Rita really loved him, but, yeah. And then Antonio Banderas, uh, it's. I saw in your notes that it's funny. He's in a movie about Mexico and about a mexican artist, and actually, so him and Salma Hayek had worked together before, I think, on El Desperado or, like, one of the other films that she had been in, like, earlier in her career.
Destiny (she/they): [00:26:00 - 00:26:37]
And because Weinstein was making things very difficult for her, she asked Antonio Banderas to be in the movie as a favor. And so, you know, I thought that was really cool. Like, and Diego Luna is actually, he's, like, a really famous actor in Mexico and has been in a lot of films and, like, shows, a lot of production. So he's actually really, really famous outside of the United States. So I just thought it was really cool that everybody was, like, you know, 100% willing to do what they needed to do to make the movie happen.
Destiny (she/they): [00:26:37 - 00:27:28]
And, you know, everybody just kind of came together though the way that they needed to, to make the film as good as they could have. You know, another critique that I had of the movie was that even though Frida was a very open communist, she wasn't very communist in this movie. Like, I feel like the political things that were happening were happening around her, and she wasn't so much involved with them as, like, Frida the person would have been. And, like, maybe this is just nitpicking, but, like, there's the, like, corset that she wears. There's like a huge hammer and sickle on the actual thing, and there's just a hole there in the movie, which I thought was really, really odd.
Destiny (she/they): [00:27:28 - 00:27:41]
Like, you've kind of already okayed that. Yes, Frida is a communist. I mean, she's sleeping for, with Trotsky, for God's sake. Like, you know, she's very open. Exactly.
Destiny (she/they): [00:27:42 - 00:27:54]
But, you know, so she's a communist. Like, you've already established that. Why would you take away some of those elements. So I don't know. What were your thoughts about the communist, not communist, Frida.
Thomas (they/he): [00:27:57 - 00:28:29]
Yeah, I found it. It was a really weird tug of war between, like, how much to show and how much to then soften, to not give, like, the American audiences and, you know, any big ideas? There's, like, a lot of every. I got really annoyed at this. Every scene in which politics is talked about, it gets really, really, like, simplified and made so basic that, like, they could be talking about almost anything.
Thomas (they/he): [00:28:30 - 00:28:50]
And I just found that quite irritating because it's like there's. There's this whole bit where they're having dinner with Trotsky, and it really doesn't feel like they're talking about anything particularly important or, like. Or not anything important, but they're not talking about anything specific. They're kind of just talking about the human spirit. And it's like.-
Thomas (they/he): [00:28:50 - 00:29:13]
It's really strange how Frida and Diego are these diehard communists. And they're happy to tell us that they're diehard communists. They're happy to show us Diego and Frida being in the Communist Party, going to rallies. They're happy to show us a fucking portrait of Mao Zedong in Frida's room. But whenever it comes to actually talking about communism, it's like, let's not let anyone get any ideas when they go see this movie.
Thomas (they/he): [00:29:13 - 00:29:46]
And so they. The dialogue just felt incredibly basic. And then once they actually go into any other dialogue about Frida's pain or her relationships, I feel like there's a lot more tenderness and care towards being, like, careful about what they say there and how intimate they are about saying stuff there in a way that is just, like, that sort of care is just not given to the political stuff. And it feels like a pointed political choice to make sure that it's like, yeah, she was a communist, but let's not actually talk about any of the stuff of, like, why she was a communist.
Destiny (she/they): [00:29:46 - 00:30:11]
Yeah. And I'd even argue that, like, in the movie, it seems like there are communists around her, but not necessarily that that's how she aligns herself. Which. I mean, like, I feel bad critiquing the movie because, like, you know, again, I know that, like, this is being put on by Miramax, which we already talked about why that's an issue. And then it is an american film.
Destiny (she/they): [00:30:11 - 00:30:30]
So, you know, I think that it's very naive to expect a film to be pro communist coming out of the United States. Like, that's just not gonna happen. But, like, just the way that things were taken away. It just-
Destiny (she/they): [00:30:30 - 00:30:48]
It was very strange the way that things were kind of presented because, like, she was a communist. She did go to a protest. Like, you know, her. Her last days where she was able to do so, she went to a protest. Like, it was very important to her as a person.
Destiny (she/they): [00:30:48 - 00:31:16]
Like, to be that way that I feel like before the. The catchphrase and second wave feminism of the personal is political, and the political is personal, that Frida very much embodied that before that was mainstream. So it just was odd to not see her reading, you know, Capital or to not see her, like, talking more about it.
Thomas (they/he): [00:31:17 - 00:32:00]
Yeah, I definitely think that there's a. I mean, there's definitely a huge, huge american lens on Frida as both a communist and as a mexican. I felt that on top of the sort of bland political representation of Frida as a socialist, there was also this weird touristy feel to the movie of, like, you know, let's show them off for being Mexicans in Mexico. Like, every time they brought up tortillas, for some reason, I was always like, what the fuck is this? And there's also, like, these random scenes where, like, you know, they take Trotsky to, and they also at one point, go on a day on the beautiful, long boats and they eat there and stuff.
Thomas (they/he): [00:32:01 - 00:32:27]
And it's like, I started wondering, like, did they actually do these things so regularly that the movie felt like it needed to faithfully represent that? Or is this just the movie going like, well, we're shooting in Mexico. We might as well show off all the tourist sites, you know? So there was a lot of, like, you know, the gringos coming in and kind of, like, putting their dirty fingers everywhere.
Destiny (she/they): [00:32:28 - 00:33:10]
Hmm. Yeah, I think some of that stuff, like, you know, listen, I don't know shit because I'm a gringa, but, you know, I am just a white femme, you know, who loves Frida. But that the boats, that is very much a local thing, at least that's just what I've heard is that, like, you know, riding those long boats that, like, you can listen to the mariachi and, like, get where you need to go, but you're taking the boat. And I did, like, some of the things that they showcased. Like, it was really cool getting to watch this film after going to Mexico that I went last summer, and I'm going again this summer, super excited.
Destiny (she/they): [00:33:10 - 00:33:35]
But I saw Diego's famous painting that actually got removed from the Rockefeller Center. I have seen it in person, and, like, I whipped one tear, you know, watching the movie because it's like, oh, it's so incredible. I got to see that in person. And, like, you know, they're showcasing some of Mexico's greatest artists. So some of the things like the.
Destiny (she/they): [00:33:35 - 00:34:08]
The palace of something arts, that that's where his mural is, but. And even the mural, like, I feel like when it got removed from the Rockefeller center, like, I know more about the context of, like, their communist alignment, but, like, it wasn't really explained. Yeah, this is in the Rockefeller. Rockefeller center, like, where they're considered these robber barons of the 20th century. They're not going to let this shit happen.
Destiny (she/they): [00:34:09 - 00:34:51]
And not just Lenin, but, like, the person who was responsible for leading the russian revolution. Like, you know, I just feel like there was so much, like, context that if you don't know that, you're just like, oh, it was removed. Okay, but, you know, so much of that was missing. There were some things that I really love that they included. Like, when they're downtown, there are these accordions that you can hear, and that is actually, like, a really, really important piece of Mexico City history that, like, the people playing the accordions, it's been like a state funded thing.
Destiny (she/they): [00:34:51 - 00:35:11]
And that they're, like, trying to keep that as a part of mexican city or Mexico city's history. So I love that they included that because, I mean, you know, that's where she's from. And Coyoacán looked just like Coyoacán did whenever I went. It was beautiful. Oh, the tortilla thing.
Destiny (she/they): [00:35:11 - 00:35:33]
I did want to say that. She did say, like, in a comment one time that she would rather sell tortillas than listen to these bitches in Paris. And, like, that was real. She did actually say that. But in the movie, she's writing Diego, and in real life, she's actually writing her lover.
Destiny (she/they): [00:35:33 - 00:36:00]
And she was complaining about these bitches in Paris, that they were very, like, full of themselves. And even that in the movie, that wasn't explained, like, because she went, like, as an artist to be considered, like, through the surrealist movement. And she was very adamant about, like, nah, dude, that's not me. I'm not a surrealist. I literally draw what is, like, real, what's happening.
Destiny (she/they): [00:36:00 - 00:36:23]
And she has a famous quote. It's like, I never painted my dreams. I only painted my reality. And so she hated that, you know, the surrealists saw her that way, and that wasn't touched on as much as I feel like it could have been touched on, too. But, you know, ultimately, I know that, like, I'm a huge Frida fan.
Destiny (she/they): [00:36:23 - 00:36:31]
So no matter what the adaptation is going to be that probably I'll be disappointed because I know, like, way too much about her.
Thomas (they/he): [00:36:32 - 00:36:33]
No, for sure.
Destiny (she/they): [00:36:34 - 00:36:36]
That's just me. No, go ahead.
Thomas (they/he): [00:36:36 - 00:37:17]
I definitely think that the Paris and the american scenes had probably more pointed bourgeois critiques that Frida was trying to make, that the movie was like, let's just make it more of, like, a personal. She doesn't like the flashiness or whatever else. And the movie does a lot of that kind of manipulation of what Frieda's words, what the context of Frida's words are, you know, being used in a false context just to make the movie more presentable and more, you know, epic or whatever. I remember seeing there's a scene where Frida finding out that Diego has. Oh, are we, like, doing spoilers, by the way?
Destiny (she/they): [00:37:18 - 00:37:22]
Oh, yeah. I mean, if you're this far, if.
Thomas (they/he): [00:37:22 - 00:37:34]
You listen this far and you haven't seen the movie, what the fuck? I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But, like, so at one point, Frida finds out that Diego is, like, sleeping with her sister, and, you know, she's.
Destiny (she/they): [00:37:34 - 00:37:40]
Which, by the way, he sleeps with her sister. Yeah. Yeah, that does actually happen.
Thomas (they/he): [00:37:40 - 00:38:08]
She is, like, you know, obviously having, like, a sort of breakdown about this, and rightfully so. And at one point, she, like, finally stops, like, sort of yelling, and she just looks him in the eyes and she says, you know, I've had two major incidents happen in my life. The trolley and you and you by far have been the worst. And that was actually used. That was used from a diary entry of hers where she says where she's talking about Diego in the third person.
Thomas (they/he): [00:38:08 - 00:38:28]
I don't think she. That she meant for Diego to, like, ever read that. But it's one of those things where the. Whoever was making the movie was like, this is a really good opportunity for, like, an epic face off between Frida and Diego, you know, and, you know, whatever. It's like, it's not the biggest crime that a biopic has ever done, but it was.
Thomas (they/he): [00:38:29 - 00:38:56]
It was probably the coldest line of the whole film. And it speaks to the fact that so much of Frida's life, like you said, was this major struggle of not only trying to separate her art from Diego's achievements, but also constantly being tormented by this man who had so much more power than her. And I don't know that that dynamic is. Is faithfully portrayed in the movie. I don't think that we get enough of the fact that, like, hey, this.
Thomas (they/he): [00:38:56 - 00:39:28]
This was a really powerful, really famous individual that kind of, like, because of his, uh, uh, his standing in society and because of his reputation, was kind of able to constantly get away with being a disgustingly awful husband and partner and, like, co worker. So it was tough. I don't know. I think that, like, again, this isn't something that I would blame our. Our angel, uh, Salma Hayek for, but it's definitely something that, like, alongside the male gazing stuff, alongside the, the lack of, uh, nuance in Frida's other works is something that I keep seeing from, like, the. The american producers, like, having their hand in this film, um, which was really unfortunate.
Destiny (she/they): [00:39:41 - 00:40:47]
Yeah, yeah. I like what you said that, like, it doesn't really leave room for that nuance that is absolutely necessary when examining someone's life, especially through a biopic. You know, of course, our angel Selma, you know, we were not blaming her, but it is disappointing that, like, the parts and the opportunities that they had to kind of touch on her ideology, how she felt about the United States, about imperialism, and even how that impacted her life in Mexico, because, you know, you also have to remember that this is during a time, like, she literally changed her birthday because she was born in 1910, but she changed her birthday to be 1907 so that she could be considered a daughter of the revolution. So, you know, from her, like, being born, she is a revolutionary. And I feel like this became a very muddied version of that.
Destiny (she/they): [00:40:47 - 00:41:03]
I did want to also touch on. You said the. The male gazey kind of vibe. Yeah, off the jump. I was really surprised how much nudity was in this movie, which, you know, go off being nude.
Destiny (she/they): [00:41:03 - 00:41:33]
There's no problem with. We all have bodies, but it felt like very, like Game of Thrones, but a biopic about Frida. And as a bisexual girlie, you know, in the two thousands, it was. It was fine for you to be a bisexual. If I could, like, watch you, like, make out with somebody, like, you know, it was very much for, like, sexual exploitation instead of just, like, being accepting of who people are.
Destiny (she/they): [00:41:34 - 00:41:39]
And so this movie kind of seems like that also.
Thomas (they/he): [00:41:39 - 00:41:47]
Yeah, no, I agree. It's. It's so annoying because I don't want to bring up Harvey Weinstein again, but.
Destiny (she/they): [00:41:47 - 00:41:59]
It's like, it's inevitable to bring him up, unfortunately, because you can't look at this movie without talking about some of the ways that he stained this movie.
Thomas (they/he): [00:41:59 - 00:42:47]
It's annoying because with the sort of standards that he put where he wanted, a full frontal scene with Frida and another woman, for better or worse, Weinstein being, like, a disgusting pervert, pressured the film into becoming a essentially a film about a queer communist mexican artist who has a full frontal sex scene with another woman. So it's like, you know, there's a lot of, like, critiques of films, you know, especially in this day and age where it's like, oh, yeah, you're like, you know, major motion pictures are willing to say that they have queer characters, but they won't even show them kissing. And then you go back to 2002 and you have this, like, extremely confrontational film that's like, no, she was. She was queer. She-
Thomas (they/he): [00:42:47 - 00:43:10]
She had loads of affairs with women and she was also, like, a proud communist. And it's like, you know, coming out of the film I did, the more time I spent thinking about the film, the more I was like, it's mad that this film was made in 2002. Like, it doesn't feel like a real film from 2002. It feels like something that could have been made this year. But, yeah.
Destiny (she/they): [00:43:10 - 00:43:34]
I disagree. I don't think that it could have been made now because I think that, like, now people are almost not wanting to do sex scenes. There's very much like, I don't know if you saw the character of you. Pam Badgley was like, yeah, no, I'm not doing sex scenes anymore. And that has become a very common sentiment in Hollywood. And, like, there's nothing wrong with it.
Destiny (she/they): [00:43:34 - 00:44:04]
You know, sex is natural. And should it be included in film? Yeah, sure, if people want it to be. But if on the other end, if people don't want to do that, then we shouldn't force them to just for the sake of the film either. But, you know, yeah, it's interesting because, like you said, some queer movies, like the one that we analyzed before in the imitation game, that, like, it would call itself queer representation.
Destiny (she/they): [00:44:05 - 00:44:07]
But, like, where.
Thomas (they/he): [00:44:08 - 00:44:11]
Where did queer representation in the room with us.
Destiny (she/they): [00:44:12 - 00:44:21]
Exactly. Where did that happen? And this movie swung all the way on the other end and is like, what's up? Yep. Tits in your face.
Destiny (she/they): [00:44:22 - 00:44:59]
We're definitely doing queer representation. So. And it's interesting to think about, like, now, in retrospect, how much would have been included if that creep wasn't included in the production. You know, I feel kind of thankful that he wanted that to happen because that meant that, you know, at least the representation was a little bit more authentic than something that we're seeing today. But also, you know, he wanted that.
Destiny (she/they): [00:44:59 - 00:45:01]
So of course he did.
Thomas (they/he): [00:45:01 - 00:45:50]
And it was done under the pressure of him, which, like, made everybody feel bad about it. So it's like, yeah, it's a really complicated one. I think on your comments about specifically the kind of more puritanical and sort of sanitized way that, like, sex is being treated nowadays, I definitely think that after the fallout of, like, the me too movement, there started being this, like, semi obnoxious response from, like, straight men of being, like, well, we just don't do it at all because, like, we can't trust ourselves around you, so, like, we're not even gonna risk it. And I think that there's currently, like, a bit of a fight between. I talked about this with my friends quite a lot because, like, we were seeing a lot of really bad takes on Twitter, where it's, like, if you see any sex in a movie, it's, like, bad immediately.
Thomas (they/he): [00:45:50 - 00:46:24]
And, like, there's no such thing as, like, people willing to do it, like, together as, like, a consensual thing to show an art form that has gratuity in it. And there's, like, a bit of a push and pull between, like, one side of, like, filmmaking that kind of doesn't just want to ever even bother doing it. And, like, Penn Badgley said he just doesn't want to do sex scenes anymore, which is, like, fine, that's his prerogative. But it's like, I don't think that that's, like, how all films should be treated. And then there's films that are trying to kind of bring the smut back a little bit and try to be, like, really flirtatious and sexy.
Thomas (they/he): [00:46:24 - 00:47:17]
Like, this year alone, we've had, like, challengers and love lies bleeding, which are, like, two phenomenal, really smutty, like, queer films that have, like, that, you know, like. And in some ways, like, challengers isn't even all that sexual, but it's just so playfully flirtatious that it, like, it feels a little wrong. It feels, like, a little naughty. And I, like, really love the fact that they're going for that and they're going for it, like, through a queer lens and being able to show that, like, no, there is a way to do this right that isn't exploitative. So it's so unfortunate that that's happened in the Frida film in an exploitative way, because, like, we're starting to see films today, or at least this year and in some years recently, where they're going forward with actors that are consenting to do this and are wanting to show, like, that these sort of scenes are possible to portray, you know, in cinema.
Destiny (she/they): [00:47:17 - 00:48:13]
Mm hmm. Yeah. And, like, that's what we want, you know, and that's like, this conversation does require nuance, but, like, that's what the goal is. Like, that if there are these moments that are filled with sex, that it has to be consensual and it can't be done from an exploitative, you know, intent. One thing that I'm thinking about now that we're talking about is that, like, also just the way that the LGBTQ community has automatically been associated with sex, that, like, we're seeing that kind of play out in live time here in the movie, because, like, while it feels really great to have bisexual representation and to have a woman loving woman be in a mainstream film, but also that's coming from the mind of Harvey Weinstein, who's thinking about, oh, isn't it so hot?
Destiny (she/they): [00:48:13 - 00:48:31]
You know, very. Again, for the male gaze. And so, like, I feel like it's kind of that balance of, like, honesty, but, again, not from, like, an exploitive way, because, yeah, queer people have sex, but, like, that's not all that we are.
Thomas (they/he): [00:48:31 - 00:49:18]
You know, I definitely think that this kind of goes back a little bit to something we were talking about during our review of the imitation game where, like, you know, you have the early two thousands, and you have a movie like Frida where they're like, well, if we're gonna have a bi woman, then let's just, like, really exploit that for what it's worth and have her just be sexual throughout. And then you have a film that thinks it's doing right by queer people, like the imitation game but isn't. And then it's like, well, fuck, we don't want to sexualize queer people because they've had a lot of that. So instead of, like, letting them reclaim it the way they want, we're just gonna basically say queer people are perfect little angels that don't have sex and just be done with the problem as a whole, which definitely was the wrong move. So you're right.
Thomas (they/he): [00:49:18 - 00:49:50]
It requires a lot of nuance. But I think more so than any kind of pointed solution, to me, the clear cut solution is just let queer people speak for themselves, which, like, you know, Frieda and. And the imitation game being movies of their time, unfortunately didn't have the space to let queer people do that. But thankfully, yeah, like I said, I think we're getting into a point in time where really big movies are starting to be made by queer people for queer people, which is really great.
Destiny (she/they): [00:49:51 - 00:49:58]
Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. I wonder if Salma Hayek is part of the community. I don't think so.
Thomas (they/he): [00:49:58 - 00:50:06]
Well, she is, as of 2002, as of the 2002 major motion picture Frida, she is, you know, she's an honorary member.
Destiny (she/they): [00:50:08 - 00:50:09]
We take her in.
Thomas (they/he): [00:50:09 - 00:50:20]
Yeah. When I was watching the sex scene, a tear streamed past my face, and I just said to myself quietly, alone in my room, welcome. Welcome to the resistance. Salma.
Destiny (she/they): [00:50:21 - 00:51:10]
Oh, my God. Well, one thing that we haven't talked about, which, you know, in other conversation for Nuon, were they Polly? Because, you know, you could consider what they were doing, like, ethical non monogamy, because it seemed like they were both well aware that the other person was sleeping with other people. So, you know, I guess maybe for the drama of, like, being, you know, against Diego because he hurt Frida, like, for the movie, but, like, you know, she was having affairs with other people. Like I mentioned, you know, her photographer, and she had many affairs with women at the same time as being with Diego.
Destiny (she/they): [00:51:11 - 00:51:24]
So, you know, I feel like the movie very much, like, touched on his infidelity and kind of pitched it that way. But I just wonder what the reality of that is. You know what I mean?
Thomas (they/he): [00:51:25 - 00:51:48]
Yeah. I think that the movie clumsily, uh, goes through the idea of their non monogamous relationship because there's, there's, there's a lot of the movie doesn't bother, uh, explaining or clarifying properly. They have a whole conversation where Diego's like, look, I'm not going to be faithful throughout our relationship. Are you okay with that? And then she goes, I'm so fine with that.
Thomas (they/he): [00:51:48 - 00:52:07]
And then, like, ten minutes later, she's, you know, screaming and yelling at him and saying, how. How could you sleep with someone else? And it's like, I. I wonder how much of that jealousy stuff was put in by the filmmakers just to add some kind of heightened drama. And also generally, I do think that there.
Thomas (they/he): [00:52:08 - 00:52:32]
There might have been a more sort of common sense agreement between both of them of, like, well, yeah, we're not monogamous. Because, like, it's weird how much the movie was treating Diego's infidelities as, like, these big betrayals and then being like, but yeah, Frida can sleep with whoever she wants and kind of, like, not really taking into account that it's selling us two separate narratives of how exactly Frida thinks about this non monogamous relationship.
Destiny (she/they): [00:52:32 - 00:53:02]
Mm hmm. Well, and, like, when we look back on it with a heteronormative lens with, you know, the relationship structures that are most common in our society that, like, you know, they're monogamous, they're married, but we don't really know what the reality was. Of their relationship and that it seemed like there's more to that that we don't know. And that definitely wasn't included in. In the movie.
Destiny (she/they): [00:53:03 - 00:53:43]
And this, I strangely, I feel like there are a lot of parallels with the imitation game that we also analyzed together. So if you haven't listened, definitely check it out. It is a wonderful episode. But, you know, in that critique, we were talking about how, like, they kind of want queer people to fit into this mold of, like, queer people just have one love and one great love. And while Frida does describe Diego as her one great love, it doesn't mean that there wasn't room for other kinds of love or other love in her life.
Destiny (she/they): [00:53:43 - 00:54:00]
And so, you know, just kind of like shoving queer people into this, like, monogamous box that a lot of queer folks aren't monogamous. And it seemed like Diego and Frida were also non monogamous.
Thomas (they/he): [00:54:00 - 00:54:39]
Yeah, for sure. I do wonder what a biopic of Frida Kahlo would look like, you know, today. I wonder what it would look like directed by a queer person, ideally a queer mexican person, you know, someone that is able to, like, take in every side of, like, what it meant to have someone like Frida as a hero growing up. But for now, a movie like this will do because it definitely, for better or worse, was very, very, like, it was very explicit about what it was in a way that movies of its time, especially if we think about, like, imitation game, which came out twelve years later, were just not doing.
Destiny (she/they): [00:54:40 - 00:54:47]
It was so bad. It was. It was so bad. Yeah. I feel like, you know, we've.
Destiny (she/they): [00:54:47 - 00:55:23]
We've done a whole lot of kind of complaining here, but I do think that the movie is really great. You know, in the beginning, I gave it, what, a seven? And then knowing what we know about it, maybe like an eight, eight and a half. Because I think for it to be a biopic, it does a pretty good job. Even though, you know, I'm a nerd and I know way too much about Frida that it does say who she is, you know, does it always follow through with that?
Destiny (she/they): [00:55:23 - 00:55:59]
No, not necessarily. But, you know, from the film, just very surface level, we are able to grasp that she's a communist. We know that she's very proud of her mexican identity. Her pain and her suffering was definitely present in her art in the way that she portrayed herself and that she was unapologetic about who she was, including that she was a bisexual woman. And during that time, that wouldn't have been as accepted as it is.
Destiny (she/they): [00:55:59 - 00:56:31]
Today, and even in 2002, I know the kids are bringing it back. The two thousands are coming back very much in terms of fashion and whatever, but y'all didn't live through the two thousands. And it was like the wild west of just homophobia, transphobia. Like, it was very difficult to be a queer person during that time. And so to have that be represented in a mainstream biopic is phenomenal.
Destiny (she/they): [00:56:31 - 00:56:31]
Really?
Thomas (they/he): [00:56:31 - 00:57:27]
Yeah. I say this as someone that didn't even grow up in America post 911 was this absolutely wild time where any kind of bigotry was embraced in this idea of, like, well, if you're as nationalist as possible and you're as tribalistic as possible, that's good, because look at what they did to us, you know? And it's weird because it definitely heightened Islamophobia to a wild extent. But I think that also bled into so many other forms of bigotry that, like, I think so much about, like, how comedy in particular in the early Oz was just all about being horrible and mean in ways that, like, weren't, like, existed in previous decades, but weren't, like, the main attraction of the comedy, you know, and it really cheapened that era to become, like, a pretty shitty time in human history.
Destiny (she/they): [00:57:27 - 00:58:07]
Yeah, I mean, you can't watch anything from, like, early two thousands without hearing the f slur or the arsler going off of what you said. That, like, it was definitely a time where ignorance was rampant. And, like, the way that that came out in media is. Is interesting to think about now. So, you know, it makes it even more revolutionary, even more important, and even more of a better movie, I would argue, because of its timing and because of how it portrayed Frida in 2002, I think it was good.
Destiny (she/they): [00:58:07 - 00:58:12]
It was good. You want to touch on some of the historical accuracies?
Thomas (they/he): [00:58:13 - 00:58:46]
Yeah, absolutely. I think that with regards to the film historically, like you said before, it was a pretty overall accurate representation. There's bits and pieces that they change around, but not enough where it feels like anything disingenuous is happening other than maybe, like, they could have talked about the polio and the fact that she had disabilities before the trolley accident. The trolley accident really feels like Hollywood doing its thing and dramatizing it so much that they. They needed to have that be more important than, like, any other disability she might have had before.
Thomas (they/he): [00:58:46 - 00:59:18]
There is a lack of, like, sort of detailed representation of, like, what her art was about. She talks a lot about. Well, she doesn't talk about, but she paints a lot about dualities and specifically about her mexican heritage. Versus her european heritage, Christianity versus aztec beliefs, masculinity versus femininity. And it, you know, we don't get a lot of that in the movie, but we get a lot of other stuff that is very real about her.
Thomas (they/he): [00:59:18 - 00:59:35]
We get the affairs that she has. We have the fact that Diego Rivera did sleep with Christina Kahlo, her sister. Weirdly enough, Frida Kahlo had an affair not only with Trotsky, but with the american artist Georgia O'Keeffe, and we get nothing about that affair whatsoever.
Destiny (she/they): [00:59:35 - 00:59:40]
They did include Josephine Baker, though, and I loved that.
Thomas (they/he): [00:59:40 - 00:59:41]
Yeah, for sure.
Destiny (she/they): [00:59:42 - 00:59:42]
Yeah.
Thomas (they/he): [00:59:43 - 00:59:54]
But, yeah, I think I was pleasantly surprised for a biopic. It. It didn't mess around too much with the facts of Frida Kahlo's life, which was really nice to see.
Destiny (she/they): [00:59:54 - 01:01:01]
Yeah. Yeah. I love that you mentioned the dualities, because I think that, honestly, for me, as a bisexual girly, that's what draws me to Frida, is her acknowledgement of that duality that, like, because just being a queer person in general, like, regardless of where you are in the Alphabet mafia, that, you know, you are different, you are outside of the quote unquote norm. And that with that comes that duality that you want to belong somewhere so badly because, you know, that's innate to our existence as humans, but that we're ostracized from our own communities, from our society, from, you know, all the things. And just seeing someone who embraces that duality so beautifully and the way that she articulates that in her work, that that's really what draws me to Frieda.
Thomas (they/he): [01:01:01 - 01:01:40]
On the duality thing. I just want to make a quick point because I wanted to acknowledge this in the podcast, just as a point of, like, I'm aware that this thing exists. There are critiques or criticisms, I should say, of Kahlo in terms of her use of her indigenous heritage in her art, specifically because she is someone that had a european father and very much enjoyed the benefits of being white, passing and also existing within a more european society in Mexico. And a lot of the.
Destiny (she/they): [01:01:40 - 01:01:41]
And she was affluent.
Thomas (they/he): [01:01:41 - 01:02:14]
She was, yeah, she absolutely was affluent. And there's criticisms of, like, well, how much of what she uses in terms of presenting herself as an indigenous person in her art is, like, either appropriated or getting overblown for the sake of being able to show this image of her being different. But as someone that has. I mean, I'm brazilian and I'm white, and, like, I'm the only sort of connection I have with Frida, really, is that I'm jewish and I'm bisexual. I'm a bisexual girly as well.
Thomas (they/he): [01:02:14 - 01:02:59]
But, like, as someone that doesn't, you know, it's not my place to comment on, like, whether Frida is right or wrong to have, like, sort of touched into that side of her heritage. But I will say that, like, for me, one thing that is interesting about her work is that there's. There's always this poll about, you know, what her heritage actually is. And she speaks to a very big portion of people that have left Latin America or might still be in Latin America, but have felt the United States influence on their countries. And the fact that that has really messed up a lot of our sense of feeling like we belong in the countries we belong in.
Thomas (they/he): [01:02:59 - 01:03:33]
I don't make a lot of content about me being brazilian without me eventually seeing comments being like, well, you're not really brazilian. You don't really belong there. And it's become a bit of a defensive line from fellow Brazilians. But also, I feel that when I speak to western people, like, in the UK or in America, I definitely feel that there's a pressure for me to try and live up to more western parts of my. Of my identity and in order to, you know, please and.
Thomas (they/he): [01:03:33 - 01:03:52]
And impress the people that, like, I need to impress in order to get ahead in life. And it's. And it's really shitty. And I think Frida Kahlo definitely talks about that and talks about the. The domination that the United States has had over Mexico and how much that's impacted her work and her beliefs.
Destiny (she/they): [01:03:53 - 01:04:35]
Well, and like I, as I mentioned, am just a gringa that loves Frida. And so I think that, you know, it's not really, like, my place to judge Frida, but in this whole conversation, it requires nuance that also, we're looking at this from 2024 eyes. So, you know, like, I don't want to just defend Frida, but, I mean, her mom was mestizo, so, like, it's like, you know, I don't want to say that, like, people shouldn't critique her for that, but, I mean, she does have indigenous roots, so it's like, well, no, I agree.
Thomas (they/he): [01:04:35 - 01:05:10]
And this isn't me coming at her, by the way. I'm sort of. No, no, I definitely think that there is some. There's, like, a lot of validity to the work that she was doing, specifically, where regardless of whatever stuff is being criticized about her, a lot of her work does talk about the pressure that is felt by her of, like, presenting as more european or, you know, letting go of the mexican roots specifically because of imperialism and colonialism. So there's a lot of, like, really valid takes that come from her paintings about the difficulty of actually holding on to indigenous roots.
Destiny (she/they): [01:05:11 - 01:05:47]
And when you think about, like, you know, we talked about that, like, her image has become, like, very capitalized on now. And, like, when you look up Frida, the images that will come up will probably not always just be her. Like, the unibrow has been plucked, that her skin is much more white than what she actually was. So also her image has been changed to fit into something that is more acceptable. And unfortunately, you know, she's not alive, so she doesn't have any say on how people have.
Destiny (she/they): [01:05:48 - 01:05:50]
Have capitalized on her image as well.
Thomas (they/he): [01:05:50 - 01:06:22]
I wanted to quickly say, if anyone is interested in watching recent media that talks about and investigates white liberal attitudes towards indigenous and mexican people, I cannot. Cannot recommend the curse enough. The curse is one of the best pieces of television I have seen ever, and it's mind blowingly good. But it is very difficult to watch because you are just watching two white liberals be, like, terrible people.
Destiny (she/they): [01:06:22 - 01:06:56]
Yeah. Like I said, I'm just a white lady, so, you know, I don't have any say on this because I have a lot of privileges. And so, you know, I don't want to, like, speak over anyone and I don't want to not critique her or, like, invalidate the critiques that have been made about her. But, you know, again, like, every conversation has to have nuance. And I think that, like, we can't look back on any historical figure without being critical of some of their actions.
Destiny (she/they): [01:06:56 - 01:07:26]
I mean, I'm sure she was a wonderful person and I love her. And, you know, I, again, know too much about her, but that, like, it doesn't mean that she shouldn't be critiqued or looked at objectively as well, for sure. Okay, well, this feels like a good stopping place, and we've been talking for like an hour and a half, so. Well, thank you so much for joining me. If you haven't checked out Frida, be sure to do so.
Destiny (she/they): [01:07:27 - 01:07:38]
It's available, I think. I watched it on Amazon prime. Definitely a good biopic. Again, I would give it like an eight out of ten. Thomas, what about you?
Thomas (they/he): [01:07:39 - 01:07:42]
I think between a six and a seven. I'll say seven.
Destiny (she/they): [01:07:43 - 01:07:48]
Okay. Salma, don't listen to him. Our sweet angel, Salma, please.
Thomas (they/he): [01:07:48 - 01:07:49]
I'm sorry.
Destiny (she/they): [01:07:50 - 01:08:14]
Well, thanks again, Thomas, for joining me for this conversation. If you want to check out their content, you can do so on TikTok or over on Instagram. They are leftistsquidward and I'll leave all of the information in the description. And like Thomas and I mentioned, definitely check out the imitation game. Probably the worst biopic I've ever seen.
Destiny (she/they): [01:08:14 - 01:08:22]
So lots of juicy thoughts there. So yeah, thanks so much again for tuning in, and we'll see you in the next.
